Cup of Coffee Test

Spider !

In case you don't know how it works  .

So, i tried the cup of coffee test at the weekend, albeit with a cup of tea.  The results were fairly as disappointing with a lot of rippling and just a bit lumpy. Hopefully this link will work:  https://www.dropbox.com/s/e1v6ynoh47amrrm/Video%2002-01-2015%2009%2044%2004.mov?dl=0

I had noticed that the engine wasn't that refined on tickover and this was something that the mechanic mentioned when dropping the car off after having a service and new set of plugs.  He advised that it was a very slight misfire when ticking over but was fine when running under load.  No need to do anything about it, but if i did want a perfectly smooth tickover that you would get on an S Class, he has suggested replacing the HT leads.  I received the quote today to replace the 16 plug caps and ignition leads and the total came to an eye watering £700.  Now this mechanic is ex MB who comes highly recommended and the work he has done for me so far and has quoted for other stuff is very reasonable so I've no question about his labour costs but being ex MB mechanic, he has recommended MB parts although suggested I could go for cheaper alternatives.

Questions I have are;

1. Is it likely that replacing these parts will result in a more refined tickover?

​2. Is there any substantial discount available through the club for replacement MB parts?

3. Are there cheaper alternative brands that i should consider?

4. Should I ignore the tickover (as it's not really an issue) and spend the money on the replacement V8 exhaust with twin exit pipes which I have booked in for Monday?

Thanks in advance.....

Spider,

nice video - amazing what balancer shafts can achieve! 

i won't try that on my V8 diesel !

From the colour of your expansion tank, it looks like you are using a Red OAT antifreeze in your engine?

If thought OAT antifreeze was not compatible with MB engines and should be the Blue Glysantene version?

Often, the ignition parts are made (OEM) by Bosch or Beru and you can buy these directly through their distributors

The Red OAT antifreeze with carboxylate corrosion inhibitors is supposed to have a much longer service-life than the blue stuff with silicon-based corrosion inhibitors. HOWEVER,, the two types are not compatible and a thorough rinse-out of the cooling system is required if switching between the two types.

My car has not been to an MB dealer for ages, but both my G400 and G300 use the blue coolant and always have. The OAT has some advantages with all aluminium engines, but also some reports of other problems with it, Although Ford and other manufacturers have been using it for many years, Ford recently stopped using it because of various problems.

I don't know if  MB policy changed at some point to use the red OAT antifreeze - perhaps so, if your's has been maintained by an MB dealer. However, my research, below, shows that most likely you should be using either G-05 or G-48 antifreeze formulations, which are not OAT based. (although some G-05 versions may be 'hybrid' with small quantities of selected OAT compounds). Importantly, the G-05 formula also contains nitrates, which help prevent corrosion of steel cylinder liners (eg in newer diesel engines), but this is not an issue for all-aluminium engines without liners.

Most antifreeze is ethylene glycol based, but there are different corrosion inhibitors used in different versions. The MB-approved blue/green versions use silicates (Europe) which form a protective coating on the metal surfaces, but have a relatively short life so  the coolant needs to be changed approximately every 3 years. Other versions use phosphates (USA) or a combination of both. The OAT versions were developed for asian vehicles and do not contain silicates or phosphates: They protect by chemical reaction with the metal and because they do not form a 'protective' coating on the metal, as with silicates or phosphates, they provide for better heat transfer. However, the 'chemical reaction with metal surfaces' is what can cause problems unless all the metals in the engine are compatible, which may not be the case with cast-iron blocks and other parts?

If your engine materials are fully compatible, the OAT versions have by far the best performance, but check, because if not...

Read more here:

http://www.machinerylubrication.com/Read/841/coolant-fundamentals

some general info here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antifreeze

If you look at the Coma website, they produce/market all the different versions of antifreeze, including general purpose, as well as the manufacturer-approved types. The manufacturer approved types are made with BASF (German) solutions. Of the manufacturer-approved types, you will notice that their RED OAT-additive G30 versions do not carry MB approval. However, the blue/green G48 version, based on BASF Glysantin G48 formula does  But, also there is an Si-OAT  (G40) version (Purple), which has MB approval. This latter one is a hybrid silicon-OAT type.

The approvals for the Red, OAT version are fewer and mostly for relatively newer vehicles..

http://www.commaoil.com/passenger-vehicles/products/subcategory/13

OAT: (Red) - carboxylate inhibitors

Official approvals:

Glysantin® G30® by BASF is approved by: VW/Audi/Seat/Skoda/Bentley/Bugatti/Lamborghini (TL774-D/F); Jaguar from 1999 (VIN 878389); Porsche from 1996; MINI Cooper D between 2007 and 2010; DAF; MAN (324 SNF); MTU (MTL 5048)

Si-OAT  (Purple)  (hybrid technology)  - Silicate and carboxylate inhibitors (hybrid)

Official approvals:

Glysantin® G40® by BASF is approved by: VW/Audi/Seat/Skoda/Bentley/Bugatti/Lamborghini (TL774-G) from 2005 onwards & Porsche 911, Boxster, Cayman, Cayenne, Panamera from 1997 onwards; Mercedes-Benz (325.6); MAN from 12/2011 (MAN 324 Typ Si-OAT); Mercedes Trucks from 10/2011 (325.5)

Ethylene Glycol (Blue/green)  - Silicate inhibitors

Official approvals:

Glysantin® G48® by BASF is approved by: VW/Audi/Seat/Skoda up until 1996 (TL774-C); Rolls-Royce (from 1998), BMW/MINI BMW (except MINI COOPER D from 2007 to 2010) (N 600 69.0); Opel/Vauxhall up to 2000 (B 040 0240); Saab (690 1599); Volvo (1286083 Issue 002); Porsche up until 1995; Tesla; Jaguar up until 1999 (VIN 878388); MAN (324 NF); Mercedes-Benz/ Smart/Maybach (325.0); Van Hool; Volvo Truck up until 2005; MTU (MTL 5048)

Ethylene Glycol (Yellow)  - Silicate inhibitors - Heavy duty - version of above, 6,000 hr life

Official approvals:

Glysantin® G05® by BASF is approved by: Chrysler (MS-9769); Mercedes Benz (325.0); MAN B&W (List 3.3.7); Cummins (CES 14603); Ford North America WSS-M 97B51-A1; MTU (MTL 5048);John Deere (JDM H 24); JCB (STD 00088)

Not saying that the G is an 'historic vehicle' but here's some other info:

http://www.mg-cars.org.uk/imgytr/hints&tips/antifreeze.pdf

....and more information here:

http://www.motor.com/article.asp?article_ID=816

'...The inhibitor 2-EHA (OAT) poses another issue: It's a plasticizer (softens plastic), so it has been blamed for coolant passage gasket leakage. Softening (and the resulting distortion) was reported by Ford, which encountered gasket leakage problems when it tested a DexCool-type formula on its V8 engines. Ford also saw similar issues with other gasket materials. That killed the OAT coolant idea for Ford, which had used a DexCool-like coolant in the '99 Cougar V6. ...'

What Preceded OATs ?

'....Until the extended-life OATs came on the scene, there had been primarily two major coolant inhibitors for aluminum protection-silicates and phosphates-and conventional American coolants have used formulas containing both of them. Silicates are related to sand, and there were questions as to their effect on water pump seals. Some old tests seemed to suggest they were harmful, but there has been no credible evidence to support that stance on late-model designs with reputable brands of coolant. In fact, today's carbide seals are about as durable as you can get, and silicates that remain in solution seem to produce no problem anywhere. In real-world evaluations, there's no evidence of any issue, as silicate inhibitors have been used successfully for many decades in all makes of cars. Where a seal-deterioration issue surfaces, it has been attributed to core sand, from failure to clean engine blocks properly.

Silicates protect very quickly, so if there's some mechanical breakdown in the silicate protection, it re-forms very rapidly. For example, a water pump may suffer cavitation erosion/corrosion (a high coolant/ambient temperatures issue, particularly with certain cooling system designs). That means that as the coolant passes through the pump, bubbles are produced, which then collapse with explosive force, pockmarking the internal parts of the pump. That pockmarking is erosion, the marks being exposed, unprotected metal. If the inhibitors work quickly, the damage stops after minor corrosion. If they work slowly (as with organic acid inhibitors), the pockmarked areas corrode for a longer period.....'

and finally... an article from the SAE:

http://articles.sae.org/11284/

'....

Daimler sticks with silicate-based formula

Silicates eventually are depleted in normal operation, and there are severe laboratory tests that cause it to drop out of solution. Those Asian companies that require these tests, primarily the Japanese makers, will not use silicates. Their phosphate alternative has a similar coating action but is not as durable and depletes over time. It also will not pass European car makers' tests with extremely hard water, with which they form scale deposits.

However, phosphate does enhance protection. Without it, Japanese makers have said, antifreezes will not pass their engineering tests. Asian service intervals typically are up to five years or 100,000 miles.

One major automaker still using a silicate formula with a long service interval is Daimler. Its engineering approach permits a service interval of 15 years/150,000 miles. Daimler’s “secret” is a silica gel packet, similar to what is used with electronics packaging, in the coolant reservoir. Daimler has found it gradually releases enough silicate to “refresh” the antifreeze. However, it recently replaced the G-05 with G-48, another low-silicate formula with sebacate, only a dash of 2-EHA and reduced borate. The two are compatible, and Mercedes dealers are treating them as interchangeable.

BMW and VW/Audi also use formulas with low silicate content in combination with similar OAT mixtures.

Unlike G-48, G-05 also contains nitrite, an additive that helps prevent diesel wet cylinder liner pitting corrosion. It reportedly was part of the protection package that Daimler required when it first approved the formula over 30 years ago. Nitrite cannot be used in an OAT formula, but diesel engine OEMs have found that the diesels in their cars and light/medium duty trucks enjoy satisfactory life with the OATs. The Cummins diesel, for example, passed Chrysler testing with its OAT, Lawrence said.....'

Thanks. just found some more data here:

http://www.benzworld.org/forums/w210-e-class/1589546-need-help-alternati...

There's a good downloadable PDF article, which summarises better what I was trying to say above.

The range of G-Wagen engines are covered by specification sheet 325.0 for coolants/antifreeze/corrosion-inhibitors. This specifies either a yellow, G-05 (with nitrites) or a blue/green G-48 coolant. Both with a 3-year change interval.

The G-30 type , OAT coolant is only mentioned in sheet 325.3, but is applicable only to a few commercial vehicle engines.

We had liner pitting (cavitation) on CAT engines on the opencast sites engines I worked on we used 50/50% antifreeze this was recommended by Cat it reduced the cavitation and was a good corrosion inhibitor.

You can't stop the cavitation I've seen engines holed in the liner letting fluid into the engine then found out the site hadn't followed the rules and just used pond water which turned out to have lots of corrosive minerals in.

I use about 40% mix in my 290GD engine this link tells you about the problem it's a fleet guard filter & Cat bulletin 

https://www.cumminsfiltration.com/pdfs/product_lit/asia_pacific_brochure...

Joe

Unlikely to be the crank sensor, they tend to fail completely causing the engine to stop. Misfire could be a single lead or power pack which can be replaced rather than the entire 16.

What are you doing with your exhaust?

Back to the anti-freeze topic.  Thanks for an excellent post Arnie. The comment about corrosion subsequent to using pond water leads me to a rather basic question that I am unclear about.  I live in a very hard water region, does this matter if I use it to dilute the antifreeze or should I be using distilled water (I have a distiller which I use to run an autoclave).  Any of the experts know the answer to this??

I think that apart from possible lime-scale build-up  (from calcium carbonate as in kettles), it was mentioned that elements like magnesium in  hard water will react with the protective silicates or phosphates in the antifreeze to form other scaly products. Phosphates are more susceptible to this than Silicates and for this reason MB (G05 or G48) antifreeze is silicate based.

It was said that either distilled-water (most hard chemicals removed through boiling/condensation)  or de-ionised water (hard magnesium and calcium ions replaced by sodium ions) should be used to dilute concentrated anti-freeze, but soft water from the tap is also fine. If you have one of those Brita - type water filters, that should also be fine.

The G48 = "nitrite-free MB 325.0" (part No A000989082510)

G05 = "non-nitrite-free MB 325.0"

The nitrate is an anti-corrosion additive for cast-iron blocks and aluminium blocks with wet cast-iron cylinder liners

As most new blocks are aluminium nowadays, MB has switched from G05 to G48 formula - essentially the same but  without nitrite

(I think the G-numbers refer to the formula of the antifreeze formulas, made by BASF, eg Gysantin, G05, which is the original MB antifreeze)

I think that would be better as BASF G05 was designed specifically for tat era of engine and the antifreeze formula can be bought through the Coma brand, if no longer though MB

There was an article about MB switching antifreeze formulas and saying that the replacement (G48) still offers 'adequate' protection for cast iron.for the expected service life of the engine, but as G's tend to live longer than most other cars....

But, actually, looking at the BASF data sheets for both G05 and G48, in the published results for simulated engine wear, both show a similar good figure aluminium and cast-iron and also for water-pump cavitation protection. The main difference notable in the data sheets is that the G05 formula also shows good results for steel parts, which the G48 doesn't.. So perhaps cast-iron is not so much of an issue, then and either G05 or G48 should be fine, in this resect.

Also notable from the data sheets is that both are not so good at protecting copper, tin, solder, brass and those types of metal - both allowing some erosion/corrosion -  but G05 is about 4x better than G48, so if your 460 still has the part-brass radiator, then the former may be the one to go for. (or also if you've changed your aluminium 463 radiator for a copper-cored one)

Yeh but - how fast were you traveling at the time??

I would think not too fast if he was running backwards to film it. ;-)

Calm is restored: after having the spark plugs and leads renewed , the G is running really smoothly now. Could certainly pass the cup of coffee or £ coin test although I cant pass the YouTube test to prove it.  The engine also feels much more responsive particularly in the lower Rev ranges. 

Money well spent!