1985 300GD SWB Gearbox Advice
Hi
My G has the 5 speed manual box. I recently had a selector problem (got stuck in first) but a bit of wrangling with the selector rods sorted this, but revealed weeping transmission fluid from the selector rod port. It is losing about 1ltr every 750 miles or so.. Whilst the gears are fine it seems the box is getting 'tired'
Having got caught out when the cylinder head failed, I want to get my options sorted before it all goes wrong. I have looked round the forum and realise that the 5 speed box especially the getrag has a reputation for weakness, but I do a reasonable amount on the motorway so think 5 vs 4 speed suits.. Thoughts appreciated though.
So 1) anyone know any good gearbox refurb people in the northwest - Manchester, the garage I use have fallen out with their usual one 2) any options for getting another one I.e. Merc saloon or sprinter van? 3) any views on a better box to go in if not covered by option 2. I am not a fan of auto boxes in the G - not sure why, but does not seem to suit the early G's character.
Any views, I want to limit the amount of time off the road as well.. Makes me grin too much driving it.
Ta
Simon
Hello Simon,
From what I hear you say, your best option in my mind, is to firstly, renew the selector casing seals to address the oil leak issue and renew the selector rod bushes from both ends to address the sticking gear issue. That in its self will keep you going.
When you say the gearbox (g/box) is 'tired', this needs some elaboration, do the gears crash when changing gear upwards or downwards, is there difficult engagement, 'jumping' out of gear issues, heavy clutch, etc,etc... I can not comment on the 'Getrag' g/box, it could, be that I stand ill-informed, but personally, I have not heard of any issues with this g/box.
If you want g/box specialists, I will post their details latter, but should you choose that option of a re-conditioned box, then my suggestion to prolong the life of your next box, will be to add PTEFE Oil additive after the first oil change. The additive will help reduce friction in the g/box train aiding to its longevity. Get the gear selector serviced, links cleaned up and re-greased.
For g/box substitution, more information is needed, like engine number for one, your chassis number would be helpful. Vehicle data seems to be a touchy topic by some, so for confidentiality, you could PM that data.
My views on automatic g/box is that I am for them ON and Off - roading with. I won,t bore you with the reasons at this stage, suffice to say, if you choose auto. g/box; you will need a suitable donor of the g/box, oil cooler, flywheel, possible a prop. shaft in between the g/box and transfer box ... There could be other issue that I do not fully know off, as I never done such work and that expertise will lie with those who have gone with the trouble of doing so. The overall but here is, it will be difficult to ''time the vehicle off road; despite the planning you do.
Cheers,
This may help with you figuring out model numbers:
http://www.4x4abc.com/G-Class/transmissions/getriebe.html
I believe that the G1/18-5/6,15 711.116 manual-5 can be found in 308 vans so don’t be conned in to paying silly money for a “Wolf” gearbox.
Others can be found in MB cars but maybe with not the correct ratio’s, especially 1st. Pretty sure the bell housing can be separated so even if the starter is on the wrong side it may not be a disaster.
I’ve heard the same rumour re. Getrags but mine has done 230k miles and it’s still perfect. No crunching or noise, as smooth as any manual MB will be. So TBH I think it is more rumour than fact. Sounds more like you have a linkage and seal issue to me. I did think at one point that I had a gearbox bearing noise (nothing to do with the gearbox in the end) so I did look in to a recon or replacement. No re conditioners I spoke to wanted to know about working on a 1990’s Getrag. MB would supply a brand new one for around £1500.
Russ
Hi Russ
I reckon it is the 717 439, but need to get under it. Spent a bit of time fiddling with the selector rods and this one looks the most similar (but so do the other two Getrag boxes).
Going to chat to the garage on Monday and see how they want to progress... It is on a watch list at the moment - fed up of having it in the garage when it snows!! As it is dropping a litre of fluid every 750 miles, but the impression I got was they didn't like opening boxes if they can help it, but as I said to Rakesh that might be because the G jobs have a habit of snowballing with me stood at the door in 3 feet of snow tapping my feet!!
Glad to hear you have a good Getrag experience.. Mine has done either 150k or 250k!! I have heard of a weak bearing (input or transfer?) but again not sure and I think as you and Rakesh are saying, selectors first, but after the snow!
Ta
Simon
Yes they allegedly have a weak input bearing. You can just replace that but as you say thats not your problem. Question is can you change the leaking seal/bearing on the selector from the outside without removing and dismantling the box? I would guess that you can.
Russ
Yes they allegedly have a weak input bearing. You can just replace that but as you say thats not your problem. Question is can you change the leaking seal/bearing on the selector from the outside without removing and dismantling the box? I would guess that you can.
Russ
I killed my Getrag, my father killed one too when they were new. Input bearing is split and weak. They rattle/chatter with a diesel. Mine had your problem.. it was leaking out of a shifter shaft.. I presumed it was a turbo oil leak amoungst the various bits of bodging on mine so kept going until it went. I can tell you when the oil runs out it gets about 20hp more powerful!! (I was pulling a car+trailer uphill and accelerating to 75mph.. unheard of!). Mine died after getting progressively noiser in 5th and finally jammed in 2nd at slow speed; central bearing between input shaft and it's continuation cratered and it took the lay shaft with it as the gears had been running offset for too long.
Anyway there are seals and bearings on the change shafts I think; you could do the 1/2 and 3/4 easy .. might even do it with gearbox in place but it was the back 5/rev one on mine that was doing the Exon Valdez impression; to do that is a box out job. I do still have the box hanging around having thrown it back together so could have a dig.
Options;
1. rebuild what you have .. not too hard .. fit some synthetic oil when finished. I would do this..
2. fit a 190/E gearbox with wrong gearing ratios but same 5th .. lot cheaper! But needs a few tweaks.
3. Go Van/Granny/Wolf gearbox .. which I did .. took me 6 mths and had to make one good box from 2 bad .. and TBH it is not a simple bolt in unless you want to spend +£1k on the Wolf gearlinkage. But it should last forever.. the internals are a lot better but then it weighs 30% more.
1b.. do weak front bearing upgrade while in there.. needs bit of engineering..http://www.benzworld.org/forums/g-class/1245363-possible-fix-717-42-g-5-a.html
2. http://mercedes-190.co.uk/topic/217321/1/
2b. Manual 300E-24 (available for W124 and R129) = 717.450 (different ratios and no wading vents), NB Since 1989 all the 24V got the two mass fly wheel, the input shaft of the gear box is shorter.
717.404 = 190 2.3 16v Evo
717.411 = 190 2.3 8v
2.6 gearbox is reputed to be stronger than 2.3
717.430 = ?
717.432 = 190 2.6 post ’89 with dual mass flywheel
717.430 (300E) & 190 2.6 pre ’89 without dual mass flywheel
Fitting a 190 2.6 Gearbox to a 280GE http://www.gwagen.de/html/english/gearbox.html
G=717.439 car=717.432 – both LHS starters.
I have reams on this if you want more...
Or you could just sell the G and get a new one that works!
But that wouldn't be a challenge really. All looks pretty complex - wouldn't it be more cost effective to put a new box in (I mean a refurbed one of same type). Or am I missing that the whole point is you need to find one first.
Hi mgrays.
Thought it might get a bit of a bigger job. Just got off the phone with a reputable engineering based company - their view was do what you can to keep it going, and look for another box - perhaps auto (but with 88 horse and non turbo torque, that sounds like a bit much to as of the 617).
The mechanics I use are very able guys - definatley not your 'just fit new bits' mentality - can't afford to be they are in the high peak and spend their lives sorting land rovers out. Their concern is very much that they will find what needs doing is what you have said and they feel a box specialist is better placed than them to do it at a reasonable cost - but they just got shot of their main box guy as he stung them for £2.5 k to do an impretzza 6 speed box, but I have a feeling if your willing for me to send on your stuff to them so they can get their heads round it, they will just come round to getting get on with it - but after the snow.
Meantime I am just going to keep checking the fluid level (or put simply keep topping it up). I am sure I will be back to you for more (just spoke to the mechanics - they are still trying to find a box guy, but accept we are running out of options that do not involve them)
Thanks for all the info, one immediate question is the 717 430 box you have listed under 2b is one of the ones listed as standard to the 460. would the designation mean the ratios are the same - there are other versions with slightly different designations (717.439- which looks the most similar to mine from initial visual inspection and 717.436) that seem only to differ in ratios - bleeding confusing though.
Many thanks
Simon
Evening
Good job you saw the G the other day - it might get laid up at this rate. As you say sensible ain't got nothing to do with it I am afraid. Determined to keep the old G going, but it is testing patience.
You are right in your second comment, whilst the 617 engine is available as a recon swap (which mine has already had done). The gear box is rare as hens teeth it would seem, unless you have people like the members on this forum, you would end up in a dead end pretty quick. Especially if like me the last time you stripped a car down was for my D of E award when I was 17! mind you that was a 1920's 12 litre Hispana Souza..
Very few people seem to want to get anywhere near a manual merc box for some reason. but we will get there in the end.
Ta
Simon
Already got an offer on mine though - car dealer I know has seen the work that has gone into it so far and has first refusal on it, but as I keep saying this is as near to an heirloom as I am getting.
Hello Simon,
Continuance to thread one.
As promised, I have a few transmission specialist for you to get quotes for re-conditioning your gearbox; either your own box or exchange.
http://geartorque.co.uk/services.php
http://www.gearsandclutches.co.uk/index.php?substance=services
http://www.vegeuk.com/gearboxes.php (prefered choice)
http://www.prestigeengine.co.uk/transmissions.html?source=aw-trans-recon
Just to add, we are all assuming that the oil leak is from the gear selector rods, I could have deduced that read your original thread, until, I read it again I will not be sure. But assuming, that is where I sensed the selector rods are a possible source, I would like to mention that if the front gearbox oil seal is leaking, then the gearbox will need to removed to address that particular leak. (For your information only, based on assumption).
I will, in the mean time look into gearbox options, this will take time because a lot of data has to checked through given the details you have now provided on the PM.
Cheers,
Hi Rakesh
You are right in your assumption. The leak is from the gear selector rods. There is also play in the rods, so the assumption is that the selector bearings are worn, which is what contributed to/caused the seal to give (there is a view that it hardens over time and as such any movement in the rod other than normal later shifting will cause it to fail)
No leaks anywhere else although from other advice it would be sensible to replace the input bearing - I understand that there 2 OEM suppliers for this, with one having a reputation for weakness and the other being better.
Many thanks for the gearbox details. I will get onto them ASAP.
Ta
Simon
The leaks from mine were definitely the rear selector shaft.. very nice and clean but wet around it but then dust/dirt sticking to all the area around it.
Looking at the EPC I can see a needle bearing for that shaft but the front ones (which are not so bad) seem to have no replaceable bearing/seal. I was going to rip mine down and put in brass bushes with O rings or mini lip seals on it .. but it was noisy when I got it (idle chatter) so was not so precious about loosing it!
The Getrag for a G is a fairly rare beast to find. Going with an Auto would mean different prop shaft, shift mechanism and interior plastic but I have seen odd ones in breakers via ebay. Some do say the auto is better as you get the torque multiplicaton so more power at low speeds and no changing gear to break traction; me, I am too grippy to pay the 1-2 mpg fuel implications!
That Getrag was used in many German cars of the times so the design is not unknown to transmission specialists.. trouble is that only a couple would fit your engine.
Gearbox numbers..
717.430 = W124 = 260/300E/300D early cars (RHS starter so OK for 617)
717.422 = 460 G only 300GD = OM617= RHS starter
717.436 = 460 G only 250GD = rare beast = RHS starter.
717.439 = 463 G 200/230/300GE 250/300GD (LHS starter as OM603 6 cyl engine 300GD)
717.404 = 190 2.3 16v Evo (LHS starter)
717.411 = 190 2.3 8v (2.6 gearbox is reputed to be stronger than 2.3) (LHS starter)
717.432 = 190 2.6 post ’89 with dual mass flywheel (LHS starter)
717.435 = 190 2.6 pre ’89 without dual mass flywheel? (LHS starter)
Part of the selection process for a replacement is which side the starter is on.. 617 is on RHS but MB later standardised on LHS starters and because the bellhousing is part of the gearbox (unlike 4 speed and van gearbox) you cannot change them over. So this takes you down the route of the 717.430 as a RHS starter bellhousing as the car alternative. Trouble is that it is only 2 years when they had these as they changed over to LHS starter engines...
So chassis numbers with 717.430 gearbox;
124007 =260E
124025 = 260E
124030 = 300E
124050 = 300CE
124130 = 300TE
124130 = 300D
124190 = 300TD
Note .. only one Odd number ending .. so only 124007 was made in RHD ... looks like it might be a Japan/Aussie market early car.... so it gets even rarer in UK! Humm... www.ebay.de with Google Translate might be your friend.
717.430 = 1984-95 E class
5th (0.80) 2.46:1
4th (1.00) 3.07:1
3rd (1.38) 4.24:1
2nd (2.18) 6.69:1
1st (3.86) 11.85:1
Final drive ratio: 3.07:1
711.113 civilian van = 711.117 military = high ratio 5 speed 4.7 1st gear and overdrive top
van, models like : 210 , 209 , 208 , 210 , 307 , 309 , 310 , 407 , 408 , 409 , 410
reverse gear 2,750 = 4,078
1. 3,167 = 4,695
2. 1,619 = 2,401
3. 0,969 = 1,436
4 . 1,000 = 1,000
5. 0,543 = 0,806
711.110 civilian van = 711.116 military = low ratio 5 speed 6.15 1st gear and direct top
461 329 = 290GD
461 401/402/405 = 250GD
461 450/452/456/458/459 = 250/290GD
408 215 = Unimog U100L
reverse gear 2,750 = 5,347
1. 3,167 = 6,150
2. 1,619 = 3,148
3. 0,897 = 1,743
4. 0,657 = 1,278
5. 1,000 = 1,000
Sorry .. don't have 717.422 = 460 G only 300GD ratios to hand.. Harald probably does on here; http://4x4abc.com/G-Class/transmissions/getriebe.html
Confused more yet!!?
Here is my Getrag info .. gleaned from other forums and this one; So some of that text is not mine.. I have tried to attribute names where possible.
Gearbox 5spd Getrag GL275
This is a link to the post that describes the front bearing modification I did and how it is used in that transmission; http://www.benzworld.org/forums/g-class/1245363-possible-fix-717-42-g-5-...
I go buy a bearing (NTN made in Japan) that has a Maxi configuration (extra balls in the race for greater load capacity) and then have a surface of the outer race cut on a lathe by a machine shop to match the OEM setup. The OEM bearing has a two piece (split) inner race that was designed to ease assembly. This is a problem if the clearance is not exact. It is held in place with a very specific thickness circlip and retainer. A dubious design for a bearing that has all of the torque of the motor going through it on the way to a transmission. The bearing I modify has a solid inner race and can be assembled by lowering the case of the transmission over it. A little cumbersome but a way stronger set-up. I have charged folks the cost of the bearing, the mod and the shipping, which as varied slightly but runs around $100. I paid $200 for a stock OEM replacement back when Europa was fleecing us for parts. There are a few of these out in the world working fine so far. I have not made one in a while and would have to see about the availability of the bearings, cost and the willingness of the machine shop to cut one with a diamond tool again. I paid for a special collett to hold it in the lathe with the first one and they might have to search around for it. Not easy cutting a mm out of the face of a hardened bearing race. The chips come off red hot. Dai
NTN maxibearing (more balls than a standard bearing) #BL307 bearing was $40 US retail at a bearing supply store. FAG makes a bearing with the same specs with only 8 balls in it for $20. The stock Mercedes part was way over $200 and has 10 balls in it. The NTN has 12 balls in the race. It cost me about $140 to modify the NTN because the shop had to create a chuck to hold it accurately and it was hell on a diamond tool. It came off a couple of thousandths at a time. If anyone wants one cut at this shop it would be much cheaper because they have the chuck and they would cut the other side of the bearing that did not have a skip in the surface. Maxibearings have a hole in the side of the races to aid assembly. I planned on using the space to line up with the pin in the front gear but abandoned the idea and removed the pin.
Redline D4 ATF
http://www.superturbodiesel.com/std/617-franken-5-speed-t-323-3.html
Hello Mr. xxxx
thank you for sending the e-mail and the interest in information of the GETRAG transmission.
Unfortunately we have to inform you, that this Transmission will only be serviced by Mercedes Benz. With this situation also the service manuals are made directly by Daimler AG and we do not have service parts in our warehouse for this program and we are also not able to support you here in getting the service manual via GETRAG.
BUT:
What I know is the so called "Mercedes Benz Gebrauchtteile Center" that is selling used parts for all Mercedes programs.
Maybe they can help you, If it is not possible for you to get the requested parts or information from a Mercedes dealer.
For details, please visit their homepage: http://www.mbgtc.de/index.php?id=388&L=1
I hope this information helps you to solve the service (part) problem of your car.
Mit freundlichem Gruß - Best regards
Gernot Rapp
Key Account Sales
GETRAG
Getriebe- und Zahnradfabrik
Hermann Hagenmeyer GmbH & Cie KG
GETRAG InnovationsCenter
Hermann-Hagenmeyer-Straße
D- 74199 Untergruppenbach
Dipl.-Ing. (FH) Gernot Rapp
VK2 - Customerteam 2
Fon +49 (0)7131.644 -4422
Fax +49 (0)7131.644 -4414
E-mail Gernot.Rapp@getrag.de
Member of the GETRAG Corporate Group
http://mercedes-190.co.uk/topic/217321/1/
GL 275 is used in G wagon = 717.42? (5 speed (optional from 4 speed) manual for 460 200GE.230GE/280GE/300GD)
Similar = Manual 300E-24 (available for W124 and R129) = 717.450 (different ratios and no wading vents), NB Since 1989 all the 24V got the two mass fly wheel, the input shaft of the gear box is shorter. This is a 220hp engine so gearbox should be good for that…
The 275Z is used in MB 190 Cosworth = 717.404.. Similar boxes were used in the BMW E30 M
The 275 will take a LOT of heat.Trust me on that.
The 250 in BMW E36 3 series cars
The 260s in the 5,6 and 7 series
The 280 in the M5 E34
IOW,the 275 is a serious overkill in the 16V,and more often than not the probs with these boxes are the shifter assy that mercedes insisted on putting as a separate part on the outside of the box.
grade of oil for the 190 Getrags depends on the serial number of the gearbox,upto serial number 7340240 it is ATF and from 7340240 it is 75w-80w. The serial number is after the 717.404 stamped on the side of the gearbox case.
The capacity is the same for both at 1.6litres
http://www.4x4abc.com/G-Class/trans.html
Gearbox manuals on CD.
http://www.peachparts.com/shopforum/archive/index.php/t-228315.html
"I have a Euro-market Mercedes 300d, 5 cyl diesel, natural aspirated, with 5 speed Getrag OD transmission. Transmission works fine, but makes an irritating clanking rattle at idle WITH THE CLUTCH ENGAGED. = What you are describing is a Reverse Idler Gear - also know as an Idler Gear or Auxiliary Gear. It's a common problem with Getrag Transmission. Among BMW's, the 260, 240 and 280 and 250 all share this same problem. From the factory, there is a shaft in the Tranny, that supports the Reverse Idler Gear and it is NOT shimmed properly against the case (too much clearance.)
Somewhere after 125,000 to 150,000 miles and/or without regular oil changes, the rattle develops. To fix it (in a BMW anyway), the entire transmission must be disassembled and reshimmed. Your transmission won't break or prevent you from getting home but it is annoying” Metric motors
http://www.peachparts.com/shopforum/showthread.php?t=101235
717.430 = W124 = 260/300E/300D (RHS starter so OK for 617)
717.422 = 460 G only 300GD = OM617= RHS starter
717.436 = 460 G only 250GD = rare beast = RHS starter.
717.439 = 463 G 200/230/300GE 250/300GD (LHS starter as OM603 6 cyl engine 300GD)
717.404 = 190 2.3 16v Evo (LHS starter)
717.411 = 190 2.3 8v (2.6 gearbox is reputed to be stronger than 2.3) (LHS starter)
717.432 = 190 2.6 post ’89 with dual mass flywheel (LHS starter)
717.435 = 190 2.6 pre ’89 without dual mass flywheel? (LHS starter)
717.430 = (300E) (same ratios on 190 2.6 pre ’89 without dual mass flywheel?)
Gear ratios (5-speed)
5th (0.80) 2.46:1
4th (1.00) 3.07:1
3rd (1.38) 4.24:1
2nd (2.18) 6.69:1
1st (3.86) 11.85:1
Final drive ratio: 3.07:1
717.435 (190E 2.6)
Gear ratios (5-speed)
5th (0.80) 2.62:1
4th (1.00) 3.27:1
3rd (1.38) 4.51:1
2nd (2.18) 7.13:1
1st (3.86) 12.62:1
Final drive ratio: 3.27:1
717.404 (190E 2.3-16).. WIS has for 2.3 and 2.5 and 2.5 Evo
Gear ratios (5-speed Getrag)
5th (1.00) 3.27:1
4th (1.26) 4.12:1
3rd (1.77) 5.79:1
2nd (2.52) 8.24:1
1st (4.08) 13.34:1
Final drive ratio: 3.27:1 (LSD)
717.??? (190E 2.5-16)
Gear ratios (5-speed Getrag)
5th (1.00) 3.07:1
4th (1.26) 3.87:1
3rd (1.77) 5.43:1
2nd (2.52) 7.74:1
1st (4.08) 12.53:1
Final drive ratio: 3.07:1 (LSD)
717.432 - passenger car according DC - 190E 2,6 Litre machine
Gear G 190E
1. Gear 3,856 3,856
2. Gear 2,182 2,183
3. Gear 1,365 1,376
4. Gear 1 1
5. Gear 0,799 0,753
Reverse 4,218 4,218
Fitting a 190 2.6 Gearbox to a 280GE http://www.gwagen.de/html/english/gearbox.html
G=717.439 car=717.432 – both LHS starters.
Function of gearbox http://www.gwagen.de/html/english/Getriebe_function.html
http://www.dronsfields.com/shop-online/gear-boxes/11545/1994-mercedes-w1... MB breaker with gearboxes
W123 = 1976-1985
W123 240D = 616 engine 4 cyl 2.4litre diesel with RHS starter
W123 280 = 123.030 = OM110 = 2.8 petrol… seems EPC shows RHS but really LHS
W123 300D = 123.132 = OM617 = RHS 5 cyl diesel 3 litre
W124 = 1984-95 E class
W124 they all went LHS starter (and 3 litre diesel becomes 6 cyl OM603)
W124 E200 = 124.021 = 2 litre petrol with Getrag 717.412 but LHS starter
W124 250D = 124.105 = 2.5 litre petrol but LHS starter
W124 280 = 124.029 = 6 cyl 2.8 petrol LHS starter
All LHS starter and new engine series
W201 = 190 (1982-93)
201.029 = 2.6litre petrol M103 = 6 cyl LHS
201.034 = 2.3-16V 4cyl petrol = LHS
Uses Getrag but only LHS version.
Hi Simon,
I have checked with Vege UK regarding a re-conditioning of your own box, at a week's turn around for trade at £940 or retail at £1045 plus VAT and p&p. The company is based at Chesterfield.
They do not list a G-Wagen gearbox from stock, but could work on your box.
Someone on the thread has mentioned a 711.116 gearbox (g/b) supposedly from a 308 van or so; my checking shows the 711.116 g/b is from W461's.
By my research, your alternative donor sources can from W123 Chassis, 300D, 300TD, 300TD - Turbodiesel. The g/b from these models include 716.005, 717.400, 722.(?)18 or 722.316. You do need to check which side the starter motor is fitted. Unfortunately, the illustrations on the EPC cannot be trusted.
Going by your own engine and g/b details, the EPC shows the starter motor is on the RHS (o/s) but the g/b illustration shows the starter motor as being on the LHS (n/S). Going on this, I would caution you to visually check and re-check all fittings; like I have mentioned before, you cannot plan for all eventualities. That is the reason, I favor sticking to what you already have and work with that, unless you can afford the time for an oversight problems causing unplanned delays.
Fitting donor parts requires bell housings to additionally source and transfer the main g/b body, especially if you are opting for the iron cased g/b (non Getrag g/b). If you choose the re-conditioning route, you could ask for the re-conditioners to change the weak front bearing for a Japanese alternative, rather than the original bearing from M/Benz. Problem sol-wed, as cluso would say.
By the listing from one contributor which is overwhelming to check all specifications, to see if the g/b suggested can stand the 65KW/88ps of power and torque.
Without being helpful, I hope this can help you.
W123 would all be OM617 so RHS gearbox .. easy way to check in EPC is to look at the engine not the bellhousing but even that is not always faithfull as some engines have swapable bellhousing mounts!!
OM617 = RHS Starter
OM603/606 etc = LHS .. which came in with 463
.. so need a diesel merc from pre 1990 approx... with a 5 speed for RHS starter .. and they were factory options for W123/124
The Getrag was a 5 speed optional for W123 (like G).. so need to check on that too from breakers.
717.400 = 5 speed Getrag 250/280E/280CE/250T/280TE/240D/300D/240TD/300TD
716.005 = 4 speed MB box G75/18C
722.(?)18 = Auto gearbox series ?
722.316 - not in EPC but Auto gearbox series?
So that leaves
717.400 = 5 speed Getrag W123 250/280E/280CE/250T/280TE/240D/300D/240TD/300TD
717.430 = 5 speed Getrag W124 in first 2 years for 300D before they went to 6 cylinder OM603
rebuild your box
Van/Wolf with new gearshift/prop (Wolf = Military in my posting = army G)
Auto with new gearshipt/prop
.. heck nick a Sprinter engine and old van gearbox... or even a Musso (but gearbox no use..) and old van.. all with LHS starters.. which actually opens up all those other 190 gearboxes..
717.400 Getrag 5-speed ratios 3.82-2.20-1.40-1.00-0.81
Fitting newer W201 gearbox to OM617...
http://www.superturbodiesel.com/std/Thread-How-to-adapt-a-W201-5-speed-to-OM616-OM617-applications
Many thanks to all for the response todate..
I am going through it to decide best course of action. I have contacted the recommended gearbox guys and have had a good response so far, though no absolute guarantee of sorting - understandable given the age, but it is booked in for one of them to have a look at the box to get a better feel for what is the likely scale of the work - most tend to be of the view that sorting the selectors/input bearing is straight forward, but have no/little experience of the box so are non-comittal on that, so thanks Rakesh for the recommendations
I will digest the possible alternative sources (E-Class etc) as I have found it best to have an alternative in mind before staring down any major repair route with my G so the info from mgrays will gone through, altough from you last and very helpful summary finding a pre 90's W123 with a 717.400 seems the best route. I am close to The merc breakers Dronsfields, but have heard some bad reports about them over the years, and not from this forum, but in the world of breakers there are bound to be a few 'incidents'
My plan is to limit the current work to sorting the selectors and input bearing whilst trying to locate an E class box just in case. On the assumption that works I will start exploring the sprinter engine/box route as part of a 2012/2013 upgrade.
Failing all that I have also asked Merc parts to see what they have available. I always to do this to give me a price benchmark and a worse case alternative. So far they say the box is available, but have no confirmation of which version or the price, but it is coming from Germany (the price that is, not the box). BTW they have the chassis and engine details so have the box on the EPC, but two versions are shown, and they cannot get confirmation which is which. Spares appear to be 'difficult' with some being shown and very reasonable, whilst others are either not listed or classed as 'classic parts' and attract a very high price i.e £100 for a simple roller bearing.
Meanwhile the G keeps rolling along with regular top ups.
Again many thanks for the advice, I think I have enough now to progress on a better informed basis.
Ta
Simon
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Hi Rakesh
Many thanks for the reply I will send chassis and engine number by pm.. Not too concerned myself, but you never know what they can get up to with chassis and engine number these days.
I feel the gear side of the box is ok. I have had the odd occasion of crunched gears coming down the box and that could be down to the linkages/selector rod wear. My mechanics agree on this, so I guess we are of the same opinion. The car had new robber selector bushes/linkages (the external ones) 3 years ago, but the internal rods have significant play as previously described.
The reason for exploring options is that the last two major jobs - poor running when cold and worn front bearings - rapidly expanded into a recon engine transplant (Crewe engines supplied) and replacement of the front hub assemblies.. Ref the engine (cylinder head cracked in 5-7 places, but still going) I think we missed a trick to perhaps get a better unit into the G as the focus was on getting it back on the road.
I got the concern about the Getrag box off another thread on this forum, but there are loads of opinions, so it can be confusing. I think your course of action seems the most sensible and I will chat to the garage I use about how to do this - they are very hands on guys, so it will be worth asking again why they want to go the specialist route for selector seal/bush replacement, perhaps it is learning from the previous 'simple jobs gone big' experience - all beyond my experience
So that brings me back to the start really. I reckon, go for the garage replacing the bushes with a specialist in reserve to recon, followed by an option for a recon/alternative box supplied - the engine was a trade in job, so I am guessing you can do this with gearbox's
I think your comments make me more sure this is limited to a selector issue. However I would appreciate any views you have on specialists and ideas on alternatives (pm for chassis and engine no)
Trus this all makes sense.
Ta
Simon