M104 3.6 AMG transplant into a 460 chassis - ABANDONED

COMMENTS

Re: M104 3.6 AMG transplant into a 460 chassis - Old ...
Submitted by bigblock on Tue, 05/04/2011 - 19:21.
Hi Michael
I think your choice of wiring loom will depend if your E36 is out of a W124 or W210. Oviously it will be easier to use the loom that came with the engine which will have all the matching connections. The later W210 looms are more of the 'plug and play' type rather than the earlier W124 looms which are also in pre '96 G wagons.

However you decide to wire it you are going to have a hybrid of the E36 engine management loom spliced into a G463 or G460 loom. My prefered option if I was rewiring my G from scratch would be to use the later W210 type loom but that only works if your M104 engine is currently using that loom.

The W210 engine management system is designed to work in conjunction with the MB 722.6 five speed box and this will give you an extra headache when you attempt to run the engine without the gearbox ecu for it to talk to.

There are various wiring diagrams available for both models on CD via the internet and I think this would be a wise investment.

As I suggested earlier try and make contact with Nick (Chalky) who is a mine of information on this subject, it will save you a lot of the guesswork.

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Re: M104 3.6 AMG transplant into a 460 chassis - Old ...
Submitted by MichaelG36 on Wed, 06/04/2011 - 10:29.
Doug

Not having seen any G-Wagen looms, do you happen know if the loom in the 300GE (M103) uses similar plug'n'play connectors... or would it use earlier type connectors?

You describe the E36 W210 loom as plug'n'play, which is also my view, and a big attraction.

The reason for not putting it as my #1 option is because of the likelyhood of encountering a string of issues connecting the dashboard / instrument end' of that loom. I would like to avoid getting into a situation where I start pulling out all the 460 dash and switches to replace them with 463 parts.

I have the necessary wiring diagrams and access to the EPC... so no final decision until I have done my homework.

Michael

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Re: M104 3.6 AMG transplant into a 460 chassis - Old ...
Submitted by bigblock on Wed, 06/04/2011 - 11:01.
Hi Michael

The M103 300GE loom does not use the 'plug and play' connectors of the W210 E class but has the older type connectors from the W124 E class. (I did say this in my earlier post regarding the W210 loom only being fitted to G wagons after 1996).

If you have a M104 engine from a W210 then you can use the later G320 M104 loom and adapt it to fit from LHD to RHD. However I have no idea how you are going to get it to marry up with the instumentation and dashboard from a 460. A lot of cutting and splicing I imagine.

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Re: M104 3.6 AMG transplant into a 460 chassis - Old ...
Submitted by MichaelG36 on Wed, 06/04/2011 - 12:47.
great help... thanks.

Will revisit comparing re-using the W210 E36 loom to 'flipping' a G320 M104 loom.... also taking your advice trying to get in touch with Nick

Michael

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Re: M104 3.6 AMG transplant into a 460 chassis - Old ...
Submitted by MichaelG36 on Tue, 05/04/2011 - 23:59.
My first impression is that the 300GE M103 engine wiring loom is the same (or close to) the G320 M104 engine wiring loom ... so that's my first choice .... more to the point there's a factory made loom for the last of the 300GE RHD models.

While my E36 AMG (W210055) wiring loom is also RHD it contains too many wiresI don't;won't need on the 460. So despite being a RHD layout it's going on my back burner... it's my a.get-out-of-jail option, should I need one.

The 460 loom is very basic and pre-dates the CAM Bus used in the 463 G-wagens & E36...so it's going to come out ...to avoid a lot of 'supplemental' work adding wires and changing connectors

Transmission:

As far as the transmission is cocerned... I think I'm on a home run. .. since I don't have a 722.6 series to put in!

AMG fitted the E36 with a 733.329 transmission. This has a model designation of W4A 040 indicating a 400Nm torque rating (in contrast toi the W4A 028 models with 280Nm that are fitted to the rest of the W210 series and early G-wagens) ...

The 722.329 tansmission has nothing fancy, it's just robust and vaccum controled ... just like 720.109 W4A018 transmission in the 460 280GE... only stronger.

CAM Bus

The CAM Bus on the E36 networks a wide range of controil units, sensors and actuators on the E36, most of which I won't need on the G-wagen (at least initially) .

At some point I will be seeking tips on how to disable all the 'fancy' add-ons fitted to the E36... like 'airbags' 'abs' 'audio system' etc <g> ... but I'll ask those questions further down the line.

Russians:

I've been a bit impressed by the Ruskies (mbclub.ru & g-wagen.ru) .... they have compiled quite a lot of production data, factory visit and engine data on the G-wagens as well as Bosch Jetronic engine management systems... the even have tips on how to read and reset the Bosch diagnostic codes ... using a lengh of wire and an LED !!!...

... this raises the possibility they built the 540 ton 'Caspian Sea Monster using just sledge hammers and welding rods [-) ... come to think of it... just how did they get sputnik into space?

Michael

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Re: M104 3.6 AMG transplant into a 460 chassis - Old ...
Submitted by prwales on Tue, 05/04/2011 - 12:19.
you are unlikely to get much advice on this as no one has managed it sucessfully yet, but we are all keen to learn from your efforts. Good luck and keep up the posts.

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Re: M104 3.6 AMG transplant into a 460 chassis
Submitted by MichaelG36 on Thu, 31/03/2011 - 15:32.
OK ... I seem to have sorted out the transmission specs:

The EPC Data Sheet for the donor car (w210.055 E36 AMG) incorrectly lists the transmission as 722.828 (722.8 is a variable speed series used in the A Class)

Having spotted the error, I assumed one digit was wrong (722.8 s/be 722.3) ... however this correction still didn't match the Major assembly section of the E36 210.055 chassis. I concluded I had an transmission variation made by AMG within the W4A028 series (this model designation has a torque rating of 280Nm).

Having just found a great website full of W210 technical data http://edsoto.com which lists the transmission fitted to the 210.055 as 722.329 ... everything is now starting to match up with the EPC. http://edsoto.com/e320/w210/trans_general.htm

The 722.329 transmission has a W4A040 model designation with a torque rating of 400Nm ... slightly above the 385Nm of the M104 AMG engine it is paired to.

Thus the transmission from the E36 donor car sems to be significantly stronger than the automatic transmissions fitted into all but the latest 463 models. http://www.4x4abc.com/G-Class/transmissions/getriebe.html

I am now curious about the transmission fitted to the M104 powered G320, G36 AMG & G3.6 AMG models (463.231). The EPC lists this as a 722.372 W4A028 transmission ... my undertanding is this will have a 280Nm torque rating (less than the AMG engine output?) ... seems dubious... does anyone have any information to clarify this?.

The W4A040 designated transmissions includes the 722.391 model. This is listed in the EPC as being fitted to '4x4s'... however on closer inspection 4x4 seems to refer to the 309, 601, 602, 611, 720 series vans with OM616 engines .... not the G-wagens.

... so I have earmarked vans as a possible source of spares.

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Re: M104 3.6 AMG transplant into a 460 chassis
Submitted by bigblock on Thu, 17/03/2011 - 19:56.
Hi Michael
Congratulations on the 3.6 AMG purchase. Have a look at this thread from last year http://gwoa.co.uk/node/8149 and drop Nick an email he has already done this conversion (to a 463) and was able to give me a lot of very useful information.

The biggest problem is not with getting the engine to fit but with the electrics. I was advised to go with the gearbox from the saloon as well because this is also controlled from the new ecu (of which there are three) and is designed to work in conjunction with the engine.

There are more than a few "small" mods to be done to get the whole thing working but Nick will be able to give you a list of everything required.

Unfortunately I have been delayed in starting my conversion until the summer.

Good luck and keep us up to date with your progress.
Regards, Doug.

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Re: M104 3.6 AMG transplant into a 460 chassis
Submitted by MichaelG36 on Wed, 30/03/2011 - 11:53.
Hi Doug

I am sticking with the 722.328 transmission for now because it appears to be a simple vaccum controlled unit (without an electronic Transmission Control Unit)... once I get everything ship shape, and have found a friendly man with & willing to modify the MB ECU & TCU software, I will consider converting to a 722.6 series.

Yes, I plan to go through the wiring loom issue with a fine tooth comb.

As a start I am recovering the entire loom from the E36. However given the loom in the 460 is so different and well worn, I am likely to replace it with one from the 463 G320 or make a new one.

One thing I have found is there don't seem to be any RHD 463 models made with the M103 04 M104 engine... is this correct?

I am also not able to find anyone who has fitted a M104 to the 460 chassis?
Until I can get in touch with Nick, do you know if his M104 was put into a 460, 461 or 463 chassis?
... or of anyone else who has used the earlier 460 / 461 chassis, with the original manually selectable transfer case.

Thanks
Michael

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Re: M104 3.6 AMG transplant into a 460 chassis
Submitted by bigblock on Wed, 30/03/2011 - 17:12.
Hi Michael
I think I said in my original post that Nick had fitted the 3.6 into his 463.

As far as the M104 being fitted to a RHD 463 by Mercedes I am pretty sure that this never happened. I think the G320 (M104) was only available in LHD in 1996 and then it was changed to the M112 in 1997, again only in LHD.

There are wiring CDs available on the internet that relate to the E36 loom which would be useful. As I said previously getting the new loom fitted(and working) is the biggest battle in fitting the 3.6, although your idea of adapting the G320 loom might be a good one.

As far as the strength of the gearbox goes there was a lot of discussion about this on the old website but I can not find the posts.

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Re: M104 3.6 AMG transplant into a 460 chassis
Submitted by MichaelG36 on Wed, 30/03/2011 - 23:06.
Sorry Doug,

You are quit right you did say (463).

All LHD 463's confirms my research.. I wonder how many LHD 463's have been sold in Britain over the years?

So the 'option' of fitting a 463.231 loom 'upside down' into a 460 could be interesting.!!! ..,. clearly this could snowball if (say) the connectors, breakpoints and pin-outs have changed significantly between models.

... does anyone have any thoughts as to whether this is worth trying?

Michael

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Re: M104 3.6 AMG transplant into a 460 chassis
Submitted by prwales on Thu, 17/03/2011 - 19:15.
it will give close to double the power of the ge280 particularly if you are able to delete the catalyst...
Make sure you brakes are up to scratch and if you need to replace the engine loom do it before you fit the engine. Poor quality electrics cabling are a persistant problem with the 104 engines (except the 3.0 24v which was k-jet)

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Re: M104 3.6 AMG transplant into a 460 chassis
Submitted by MichaelG36 on Wed, 30/03/2011 - 11:35.
Yes, the additional power was a big draw .... especially given that I want to keep my options open to convert to auto-gas at a later stage.

Yes... being a 1987 vehicle... I am not required to re-fit the catalyst..

However the primary reason for changing to the M104 engine is better fuel economy in everyday use that the extra decade of engine improvements bring, including the 24 valve breating and KE-Jetronic system

I am a bit surprised to find the W210 E36 AMG donor car has a 722.328 gearbox fitted ... my research says that gearbox has a maximum input torque of 280 Nm ... a good bit shy of the 385 Nm the engine is capable of delivering....

wikipedia: 3.6 24V AMG I6 280 PS (206 kW; 276 hp) 385 N·m (284 lb·ft) M104.xxx E36 AMG

... does anyone have any idea why AMG would fit an under-rated transmission? ... or might this be a 'special' build?

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Re: M104 3.6 AMG transplant into a 460 chassis
Submitted by phileas on Wed, 30/03/2011 - 21:20.
ref your gearbox question. I can't imagine that they'd fit a gearbox that wasn't up to the task in terms of handling torque. Therefore, I'd strongly suspect that some modifying was done. However, on the vital question of what, I'm afraid I can't help at all.........good luck/watching your build progress with interest.....ph

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Re: M104 3.6 AMG transplant into a 460 chassis
Submitted by mgrays on Wed, 30/03/2011 - 21:29.
Was it actually an offical MB AMG .. AMG at one point were a standalone/independant hot rod company that was given a nod/wink by MB... then it drifted into became more offical until MB bought out AMG's original owners. So AMG may regard that gearbox as fit for purpose as they never killed one at that level .. and not because of the MB torque rating; auto boxes should be more tolerant to the abuse anyway is my guess...

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Re: M104 3.6 AMG transplant into a 460 chassis
Submitted by MichaelG36 on Wed, 30/03/2011 - 22:49.
Thanks,

Yes the donor car was a 1997 E36 AMG so it's 'official' - they were merged in 1993.

Wikipedia:
" In 1990, with AMG having become a high-profile purveyor of modified Mercedes cars, Daimler-Benz AG and AMG signed a contract of cooperation, allowing AMG to leverage Daimler-Benz's extensive dealer network and leading to commonly developed vehicles (the first one being the Mercedes-Benz C36 AMG, in 1993"

Regarding torque rating ... that's goes along with my line of thinking... if it's good enough for AMG .. it's good enough for me! ... presumably the 722.328 box is stonger than specified.

I'm certainly not concerned about the strength of box right now, since my focus is to get it all working... however I would expect the load cycle to be different for a saloon doing a standing start and a G-wagen going rock climbing... that might up the ante!

... ergo ... expect me to 'politely' decline the first invite to a drag race up snowden :)

Michael

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Re: M104 3.6 AMG transplant into a 460 chassis
Submitted by gav.helme on Wed, 04/05/2011 - 22:41.
Hi Micheal...

...Nice sounding project :)

I have a lot of MB parts experience and altough it sounds like you have EPC or at least good access to it if
you need anything clarifying from the spec of the W210 E36 AMG i would be happy to help if you have the VIN no.
It sounds odd that the build sheet is wrong but i have come across it before. Do you have the gearbox in your hands
with a type / serial no on it?

If you need any help or a second opinion just holler

Thanks

Gav

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