Anyone running a 606A in their W460 or 461?

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jeremyw
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Re: Anyone running a 606A in their W460 or 461?

rodnex wrote:
mb has no 5spd auto without electronics.

a german enthusiast put a 722.5 from 320E on his OM603A in W124.
He engineered a custom ECU for the 5th gear.

but the 722.5 gearbox is quiet weak.
if you plan to tune up your dizzel, the 5th gear will crash soon...
it is for max. 300Nm

an US freak sells standalone ECU for 722.6
Butas I remember at this moment it is only possible with M104 petrol engine.

you can use 6 spd manual gearbox from C/ E 270CDI.
it is rated for 370Nm. but it is no plug and play...
the clutch and the shifter have to be adapted to the G Wagon.

that's why I took the tough 4spd auto tranny from 350GD.
no electronic problems, no fears of braking...

So what are everyone's thoughts about manual vs auto gearbox for the 606A engine? Pros/cons?

hus55
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Re: Anyone running a 606A in their W460 or 461?

i have the manual fitted and love it. i think with the auto, one from a G would be better.

i must emphasise again that the 606a i unbelieavable in the 460,even with orc springs,orc bodylift and 35 stt's . the power is wicked !!! :twisted: s

my 5 speed manual is out of a w124, but i cannot find a serial number anywhere on it.... it hasnt blown up yet :roll:

jeremyw
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Re: Anyone running a 606A in their W460 or 461?

hus55 wrote:
i have the manual fitted and love it. i think with the auto, one from a G would be better.

i must emphasise again that the 606a i unbelieavable in the 460,even with orc springs,orc bodylift and 35 stt's . the power is wicked !!! :twisted: s

my 5 speed manual is out of a w124, but i cannot find a serial number anywhere on it.... it hasnt blown up yet :roll:

Tell me more why you love the 5spd manual Hus.
I could see that power is more controllable(ie engine braking going down hill), better MPG(vs non-TCU controlled automatics).

I agree that an auto from a G would be the best auto choice--as Rod said, will have hill holding, it is waterproof, the flange fits directly to G cardan shaft.

Custom clutches vs custom torque converters is probably all the same. Everything is more DIY-able with manual trannies I believe.

Find the serial number please! :) Keep in mind it may be under a layer of dirt. Scrub the normal places and you'll find it.

hus55
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Re: Anyone running a 606A in their W460 or 461?

the first thing i like about the 5 speed manual is the incredible low first gear ! especially downhill, its very impressive.the 5th gear really keeps the revs down too,ideal for the 606 engine which will easily hit 100 mph.

i think the auto is gonna be quieter and smoother, but finding a g auto is another story...

i will check the serial number again jeremy.

jeremyw
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Re: Anyone running a 606A in their W460 or 461?

hus55 wrote:
the first thing i like about the 5 speed manual is the incredible low first gear ! especially downhill, its very impressive.the 5th gear really keeps the revs down too,ideal for the 606 engine which will easily hit 100 mph.

i think the auto is gonna be quieter and smoother, but finding a g auto is another story...

i will check the serial number again jeremy.

I suppose without the serial/tranny number you have no idea how low 1st is do you? What model W124 did it come out of again?

I would agree with the overdrive of 5th--good for cruising.

Auto will be easier to drive in traffic but I bet most don't drive their G's in traffic. And then again, finding an auto w/ overdrive(5th) w/o electronics is not possible. Manual is looking better and better...

fixwin38
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Re: Anyone running a 606A in their W460 or 461?

Hi Anyone looking OM606 engines/G'boxes I have one 1996 non turbo non electronic mated to a non electornic Gbox and two 1999 turboed with electronic fuel management mated to electronic G'boxes."as removed runners '' no known faults..open to individual or lot offers! packed on Euro pallets shrink wrapped ready for shipment......ex Northern Ireland...

jeremyw
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Re: Anyone running a 606A in their W460 or 461?

fixwin38 wrote:
Hi Anyone looking OM606 engines/G'boxes I have one 1996 non turbo non electronic mated to a non electornic Gbox and two 1999 turboed with electronic fuel management mated to electronic G'boxes."as removed runners '' no known faults..open to individual or lot offers! packed on Euro pallets shrink wrapped ready for shipment......ex Northern Ireland...

Roundabout pricing for the '99 OM606A setup less tranny?
And S&H to the USA?

fixwin38
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Re: Anyone running a 606A in their W460 or 461?

Hi like most things G'wagon the value is "in the eye of the beholder" the engines/G'boxes are for sale palletised ex our parts store..payment is "cleared funds as agreed" prior to collection by your appointed shipping agent... we will produce a shipping invoice bearing the information you give us......

jeremyw
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Re: Anyone running a 606A in their W460 or 461?

fixwin38 wrote:
Hi like most things G'wagon the value is "in the eye of the beholder" the engines/G'boxes are for sale palletised ex our parts store..payment is "cleared funds as agreed" prior to collection by your appointed shipping agent... we will produce a shipping invoice bearing the information you give us......

Feel free to PM me a price instead.

mick the digger!
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Re: Anyone running a 606A in their W460 or 461?

fixwin38 wrote:
Hi like most things G'wagon the value is "in the eye of the beholder"....

Are they ex g wagen engine and boxes?

fixwin38
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Re: Anyone running a 606A in their W460 or 461?

Hi Mick no E 300 saloons rgds Peter

otiswesty
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Re: Anyone running a 606A in their W460 or 461?

I think you should be the one to do it Jeremy and let us all know how it goes. It would interest me greatly as well. I'm not sure the transfer case or driveline components are up to it but who says that is really the case if no one has tried it. The Gwagen is quite overbuilt so maybe there would be no problem after all.

needamerc
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Re: Anyone running a 606A in their W460 or 461?

Time to bring this thread back to life.
I have sourced two donors with the intention of ending up with a "no computer" set up.

Donor number 1 is a 1997 W210 E300 Turbodiesel.
Engine number 606962 22 008048
Transmission number 722608 00 482883 (5 speed auto)
Injection pump number A 606 070 06 01

Donor number 2 is a 1993 W124 E300D.
Engine number 603912 22 061666
Transmission number 722415 03 303901 (4 speed auto)
Injection Pump number A 603 070 26 01

Am I on the right track?
This is intended for installation in a RHD W460.
All comments appreciated.
Eddie.

phileas
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Re: Anyone running a 606A in their W460 or 461?

Hi Eddie,

love this thread!

Just a question: why not use the electronics on these engines/transmissions as they are? They are very reliable/robust with properly-designed bring-me-home-safe modes/default settings. Speaking to a few G-enthusiasts in Germany, they swear by the stock G300 TD set-up saying that, yes there are electronics, but also yes none have broken down in the desert. In fact, of the 463s, the ones that seem to be picked for overlanding are all of the pre-2000 model years, except 350s, but especially the 300TDs and 500s.

The reason I ask is because I've just bought a low-mileage 300TD from Germany and am thinking about just using it as it is to see how it goes. (When I mean using it, for the time-being, restricting use to Europe but including - I hope - some serious off roading as well.) Having a '98 E300TD estate got me onto just going with the electronic version (as opposed to an all-mechanical 290TD) as the engine was so much more flexible.

I don't know what you want to use the G for, but if you are going to remain in Europe with it, why don\t you just try using the electronic set-up with the looms separately, box/waterproof the ECUs, and switch it separately per Russ280s earlier comment?

Would be interested to hear your views,
Ph

needamerc
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Re: Anyone running a 606A in their W460 or 461?

 Hi Phileas.
I am open to persuasion on the topic of computers. I have not decided which G will get the transplant or what its ultimate use will be. I have simply decided a transplant is going to happen soon (first half 2011). Another project in mind is a low miles 500 (M119.970 and 722.370 4 speed). Would be fun in say a 1981 280...
My everyday OM617.931 with TB turbo is too good to justify taking it out. Not quick but very strong. I would happily drive that car across the planet.
My gut feeling and preference is for no computers. In my (vivid) imagination I just see it going into limp home mode 5000 miles from home.
I admit I had an E300 Turbodiesel in a previous life, chipped to 220bhp, never gave me any grief (except for its appetite for tyres!).

Let's hope this thread takes wings again.
Eddie.

phileas
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Re: Anyone running a 606A in their W460 or 461?

Hi Eddie,

Really look forward to seeing your project evolve. I understand your fear on the computer front entirely - two of my off roaders are still completely mechanical. However, as the electronics of the 606 are already considered to be 'dated' and very basic by today's standards, it should be possible to get the diagnostic software fairly cheaply. I know plenty of Land Rover TDI (fully mechanical diesel engines) die-hards, who now all run the computer-controlled TD5s because the diagnostic software is cheap and - lets face it - it is rare that the electronic or electric components go wrong....usually its mechanical and the electronics help the situation by not making the problem worse. I'm in the process of trying to find PC-friendly software for diagnosing the 606+gearbox configuration relatively cost effeciently. I'll let you know how I get on.

Good luck,
Ph

stig
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Re: Anyone running a 606A in their W460 or 461?

How about the 4.0 diesel V8 (there is no replacement for displacement), electronics removed, a stanadyne mechanical injector pump and 1 turbo?

jeremyw
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Re: Anyone running a 606A in their W460 or 461?

I believe there were some issues with the 400 CDI's.

Let's talk more about the 606A. Thank you Eddie for bringing this back to life. I've emailed Hus55 so he can share his 2nd(!!) W460 606A swap into his '79. He's running a 5spd manual from a W124 in Cyprus.

Hus???

mick the digger!
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Re: Anyone running a 606A in their W460 or 461?

morning all, Ive had my 606a with all the electronic sillyness fitted for two months...im have issues at the moment as I think ive after shorting out the circuit board in the auto box valve body! been mad busy for the last month so haven't had a chance to look at it, but have just bought a MB star system so should get it sorted before christmas

some pictures here, must take some ones now it finishedhttp://picasaweb.google.com/102431078619608601077/BlackEdtion#

needamerc
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Re: Anyone running a 606A in their W460 or 461?
hus55
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Re: Anyone running a 606A in their W460 or 461?

sorry guys but the connection for gwoa is so slow that the page get dis connected by the time i have written anything,very very annoying ! i have wasted half an hour writing stuff on this topic but unable to log it under the topic !!!!
 
better post this before i cannot....

hus55
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Re: Anyone running a 606A in their W460 or 461?

jeremy my 79 has a w124 gearbox , not a sprinter  gearbox. the only number i found on it was 1242610301. it suits the 606a well, but the 6.17 diffs also fitted on the 79 makes gearing too high, it pulls off in 2nd, an even in 3rd on 31 tires !!! so i cannot make a proper comment until the 35" tires are fitted.

i think the 606a conversion fitted following my foot steps, is far easier and simpler, giving the reliability of the n/a 603 used in 463 .

going micks way, is only for the insane [sorry, i meant to say BRAVE !]  mechanical pump, ecu, electronic throttle connection is all beyond me, and most others too,would be very costly to install too unless your name is mick or eddie...

this link below is very very useful in finding out what gearbox and engine EVERY model mercedes was fitted from factory with. inc, the late w124's, 460,461,463. this enables us to configure what  engine gearbox combination would suit any conversion that you have in my . you could for example go on the 463 model giuide and see what gearbox/engine was fitted to the G320 and what was used on say the e320 w124. i think this would be a good guide....

http://mbspecialist.com/mercedes_modelinfo/

jeremyw
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Re: Anyone running a 606A in their W460 or 461?

Sorry Hus, I was thinking clutch....you said you used the sprinter 2.9TD clutch (as used in G290TD). Late W124 5spd manual, got it. I hope it holds the POWA!! 

Mick, any reason you're adding all the electrics as well?

Eddie's about to start a 606A too....exciting to see!

mick the digger!
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Re: Anyone running a 606A in their W460 or 461?

not really much reason for all the electrics, for me it was the cheapest way to do it, Ive about 800 euros in my swap and most of that is in the alloy rad/intercooler and oil coolers, I bought the car complete so other wise I would have had to buy another  IP and auto box.
but and ecu controlled engine/gearbox is a bonus as there much smoother,

rodnex
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Re: Anyone running a 606A in their W460 or 461?

I am installing a OM606 with a 722.3 from 350GD

Also I am using following parts from 350GD:

-injection pump
-steering pump
-airco compressor
-generator
-oil filter/ oil cooler
-oil sump
-engine mounts

Later I want to install bigger pump elements and a bigger turbo.
I want to achieve more than 300 hp

regards Rod

jeremyw
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Re: Anyone running a 606A in their W460 or 461?

Crap, we lost about 3 pages of replies after Rodnex's post.......... :(

rodnex
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Re: Anyone running a 606A in their W460 or 461?

I hope it's not my fault

here is a short video of the first run with new IP
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7eulH44qW-I

phileas
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Re: Anyone running a 606A in their W460 or 461?

Good stuff Rodnex!

Do you know whether it is possible to fit the mechanical fuel pump into an existing 300TD (i.e. does it 'mate' with the gearbox or would one have to change it as well to an old 4-speed)?

Keep the posts coming........

Phileas

rodnex
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Re: Anyone running a 606A in their W460 or 461?

no, if you have G300TD with 177hp engine you can not just change the injection pump.
the 722.6 gearbox needs to communicate with the injection pump.

what is the reason, you want to go for mechanical injetcion pump?

regards Rod

phileas
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Re: Anyone running a 606A in their W460 or 461?

Hi Rod

No reason really. Was just wondering if it would be possible to make the car a total mechanical one and cut out on the electronics. Presently, I have no issues at all with the car and long may it be the case! In fact, I'm thinking of using the electronics to remap the ecu to up the power/torque to about 206 bhp/410Nm.

Thanks for your input.

Ph

hus55
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Re: Anyone running a 606A in their W460 or 461?

hi ph !

i think the electronic pump operates the gearbox too... but why change a good thing ..? keep it that way.

if things go wrong god forbid,i would recommend fitting the 603 mechanical pump and get a set of 7mm elements from mynadiesel. then you will fly,,,!!!!

rgds hus

NIKOS
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Re: Anyone running a 606A in their W460 or 461?

hi
can you tell me how much diesel lit/100km would be if we fit a pump from 603 to a 606 engine, and what changes must be made to the pump?

thanks nikos 

jdring
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Re: Anyone running a 606A in their W460 or 461?

Just reading this old post about engine swaps and its not a simple matter is it!!

You want a later engine with more power, but it comes with electonics which retrofitting into a G seems to be a nightmare.  Moving engine mounts to fit the engine seems to be the least of the problems to solve.  Intercoolers, Fuel pumps, Exhaust routes... dashboard hook-up.

I came to the conclusion better to find a donor G and replace the whole lot.  Would a W463 drivetrain transplant into a W460 more easily?

I was toying with some crazy money-pit ideas but I think I will just re-build the 230 (M102) one I have (rather pay someone to do that).

Unless somone has just the thing for a 460 and the inclination to take it on?

jhw.
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Re: Anyone running a 606A in their W460 or 461?
jdring wrote:

Just reading this old post about engine swaps and its not a simple matter is it!!

You want a later engine with more power, but it comes with electonics which retrofitting into a G seems to be a nightmare.  Moving engine mounts to fit the engine seems to be the least of the problems to solve.  Intercoolers, Fuel pumps, Exhaust routes... dashboard hook-up.

I came to the conclusion better to find a donor G and replace the whole lot.  Would a W463 drivetrain transplant into a W460 more easily?

I was toying with some crazy money-pit ideas but I think I will just re-build the 230 (M102) one I have (rather pay someone to do that).

Unless somone has just the thing for a 460 and the inclination to take it on?

Message Gordon Osgerby/g restorations on here!