617a whats the difference

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cox.adrian
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   any one know what the difference is between the

    617-951 and the 617-952  

         thanks adrian

needamerc
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Re: 617a whats the difference

From Wikipedia:

The .952 is identical to the .951 apart from minor changes to fit the North American only 123 chassis. It was also fitted to the European market W123 wagon, the 300TD. This was the only turbocharged OM617 fitted to a European W123. Power originally was 121 hp / 89 kW @ 4350 rpm, torque 230 Nm @ 2400 rpm. From October 1982 - 125 hp / 92 kW @ 4350 rpm, torque 250 Nm @ 2400 rpm.

cox.adrian
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Re: 617a whats the difference

thanks eddie

  is it posible to know what year engine i have from the number

   617.952.12.021.003 the 12 and the 021 are left Hand drive / alto

   not sure which way round so will the 003 tell the year

          adrian

needamerc
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Re: 617a whats the difference

Not sure Adrian. Gav might know.

gav.helme
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Re: 617a whats the difference

Hi Adrian

Nothing on the engine number gives you a date....

617 = 617 type engine

952 =  Model Derivitive = 123 300TD

1 = LHD

2 = Auto

021003 = Serial number

That engine is from a 1982 T123 Series 300TD TurboDiesel

The Chassis Number was 123 193 12 010549

Champagne Metallic made in Sindelfingen and sold in Nuremburg

Hope that helps

Gav

cox.adrian
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Re: 617a whats the difference

  thanks  gav thats fantastic enlightened

                                     adrian

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Re: 617a whats the difference

  gav so by that my engine was a 121hp not the 125hp?

​   

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Re: 617a whats the difference

Shipped from factory 2nd April 1982 so you would appear to be missing 4 horses angry

cox.adrian
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Re: 617a whats the difference

  good job i was thinking ahead wink

   having the IP played with and intercooler

​   as it sits tested at TAD under 150hp

​      all not lostcrying

        big thanks for all the info adrian

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Re: 617a whats the difference

There nothing wrong with these grandfather clock motors, 198hp in a c111  smiley im a firm believer in them
 

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Re: 617a whats the difference

are you gonna let us in on the ip and intercooler mods ?

hus55
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Re: 617a whats the difference

scouse g wrote:

are you gonna let us in on the ip and intercooler mods ?

 

I second scouse on this adrian...good luck !

 

 

hus55
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Re: 617a whats the difference

hi eddie . without stealing the thread [sorry adrian]

 

would you know any history on my 617a ? where did grix get it from ? was it overhauled ? is it an early version or the 125 ps version.

 

rgds hus

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Re: 617a whats the difference

scouse g wrote:

are you gonna let us in on the ip and intercooler mods ?

    did you not look under the bonnet at the AGM ??

​     to start with i did look into the myna IP option

     after talking to the Bosch specialists they said

      if you are ONLY looking for 145hp/150hp not

      necessary !! STD ELEMENTS this is not a job you can do yourself

      hi-Tec specialist equipment is needed!!!!!!!!!!

       + a nice intake air flow 280ge air box / performance exhaust

      if done correctly NO BLACK SMOKE

       ask any one who has followed me 

        on this forum

 

 what do you want to know sent IP off to the boffins 

     handed over my cash and bolted it back on

   INTERCOOLER  stopped on my way to GRAZ

​    2 days in the pub in pausa E Germany

​    all done

    made and fitted by Thomas schiffzick (www.desert-service.com)

    this is full size 

     

     the idea was to get rid of the almost undrivable turbo lag

     turbo used to spool up at 1700rpm now smooth power

     from 1000rpm SUCCESSES

​      my G is alto so the biggest problem was the 617a IP has no

     vacuum valve (with the red hat) so had to make all the 

     brackets and control rods so it would change gear 

     

​     Adrian

    

    

 

cox.adrian
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Re: 617a whats the difference

hus55 wrote:

hi eddie . without stealing the thread [sorry adrian]

 

would you know any history on my 617a ? where did grix get it from ? was it overhauled ? is it an early version or the 125 ps version.

 

rgds hus

     its sherlock OF COURSE (gav)

needamerc
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Re: 617a whats the difference

Huss.

I don't know the history of the Grix 617A.

Post the engine number here and Gav will chime in.

Adrian.

Your set up is very sweet.

Eddie.

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Re: 617a whats the difference
Hi Adrian Just to thank you for your advice on my 617a conversion done via scouseG. And I am deeply envious of your Hutchinson wheels! For the rest of the thread followers I'm midway though the full upgrade Adrian had done - so fettled 617a with fully serviced injectors and bespoke stainless straight through exhaust (without silencer currently - but most likely will have a straight flow dropped box dropped in after next stage) Next stop is the IP work Adrian talks about - the guy who did the injectors is a big fan of the 617a apparently and when the guys dropped the injectors off he asked if I wanted the IP mod doing... (he's a Bosch specialist) so it's going back in the new year for the rear body work (sodding rust) and IP Mod.. View currently is see how it goes and then think about an intercooler - trade off is pick up apparently, but as Adrian says his now spools up from 1000 rpm and does not kick out black smoke.... Different car already so the IP work should bring it close to the new TDI defenders :-) Simon PS: Just for others to think about, this route up to IPMod (so transplant, 280 airbox - with fabrication to feed turbo, full service, injector refurbishment, and lots of fettling on things like throttle linkages to keep hand throttle and bespoke 64mm stainless exhaust, but excluding intercooler) will be circa £3.5k-£4k - but don't tell my wife :-)
hus55
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Re: 617a whats the difference

you know the score adrian...!

but i think theres no engine number on mine...

 

which may indicate a new block and possible overhaul if im lucky. i hope to get to drive my G with the 617a soon. i dont want to look into any upgrades yet. lets see how it runs first.

 

could you share pics of the engine bay ? the intercooler and all other mods sound interesting.

did you adjust the valve clearence ? apparently its the heart of the 617 after about 10,000 miles..

 

rgds hus

Simon666
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Re: 617a whats the difference
Hi Hus. I have been told, and had it reiterated by Gav that you should have valve clearances, and new oil every 10,000 max and ideally every 6,000 miles if you can... if you want a chance of a million mile 617/617a. (The diesel giant guy in the US swears by this). I had mine done on the previous 617 and the mechanics were staggered at the difference it made to how the engine sounded & ran.. had them done on the 617a and they will be done every service from now on. Ta Simon
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Re: 617a whats the difference

i done the valve clearances before i put the motor in, 6k to go !

Simon666
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Re: 617a whats the difference
Indeed.. just for clarity I meant at the next service :-). Just need to do 6K before mid Feb (mot time). I think I've already put 2,500 miles on it since your install. The wife's RR Sport just sits on the drive feeling all left out! Ta Simon
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Re: 617a whats the difference

My test drive is long long long overdue, and i bet your not about 2mora?

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Re: 617a whats the difference
Yep.. around PM.. drop me a text. Out on the (push)bike for the morning. Ta Simon
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Re: 617a whats the difference

 HUS if GAV and EDDIE are following this thread 

  they have some pics of my engine bay maybe  they can post !?

   the valve clearance is very important on the 617n/a and 617a 

   i cant say i do every service (5000) but every 2nd

   Simon i rotated the turbo to keep the pipe work neat and tidy!

     intercooler  i CANT say it gave me more power but a big difference

​     a lot smoother / crisper / responsive    

   simon and hus  i think for you its not so bad as you both have M/T

    you can slip the clutch and boot it with my alto there was a problem

    on very steep hill starts trying to get to 1700rpm 

   has anyone upgraded the cooling fan from the metal prop

    to a electrical fan pros / cons PLEASE 

   now  the bit i don't understand

   for over 20 years i have always got 21mpg (motorway/town/offroad) (205/70/16) 

​   with the 617a IP played with the hutchinsons (traction engine flywheels at each corner)

    (265/75/16) if i work it out from the speedo still 21mpg but with the bigger tire profile

​     my speedo reads slow so now 21++mpg 

     adrian

    

   

   

  

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Re: 617a whats the difference

adrian, i think the gain in power and loss in tire increase has kept the mpg the same. try using the G with the original rims and tire and i bet 25+ mpg will be very realistic.

electric fan would gain you about 15% power increase so i have read and also a 10% mpg gain. it seems all gains...i dont think you need a vicsous fan in the uk as weather there is nothing like it is here in cyprus.

only downside of electric fan is water. if you often wade through deep water you will need a 2 way switch to overide things if needed. ie,

1-switch off if things get wet and fan wants to switch....not a good thing.

2-switch to normal use.

 

i havent tested my G yet...but an electric fan is also on my mind.

 

617a valve clearance is different for the 617/617a so i just read. will get it checked. i have just had a 60 bore short exit exhaust fitted.silencer seems a bit too small, we will see. the flex thats been fitted is also smaller than what ive seen on other 617a conversions...

 

my mechanic is working on fine tuning the gears now. the linkages needed adjustments etc. gearbox is off a 308 van

711 110. he seems to be struggling....and the job is going on far too long. hes also struggling now with the engine shutoff. my g was an original 300gd so the switch off should be on the ignition barrel. he doesnt seem to have a clue or hes just talking crap. today he notices the the shut off swtich on the ip !!

i given him till saturday to sort out things or i am pulling the G to another mechanic.

 

i would like to see how you guys connected up the the 280 airfllter box to the turbo.

 

rgds hus

 

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Re: 617a whats the difference

Simon666 wrote:
Hi Adrian Just to thank you for your advice on my 617a conversion done via scouseG. And I am deeply envious of your Hutchinson wheels! For the rest of the thread followers I'm midway though the full upgrade Adrian had done - so fettled 617a with fully serviced injectors and bespoke stainless straight through exhaust (without silencer currently - but most likely will have a straight flow dropped box dropped in after next stage) Next stop is the IP work Adrian talks about - the guy who did the injectors is a big fan of the 617a apparently and when the guys dropped the injectors off he asked if I wanted the IP mod doing... (he's a Bosch specialist) so it's going back in the new year for the rear body work (sodding rust) and IP Mod.. View currently is see how it goes and then think about an intercooler - trade off is pick up apparently, but as Adrian says his now spools up from 1000 rpm and does not kick out black smoke.... Different car already so the IP work should bring it close to the new TDI defenders :-) Simon PS: Just for others to think about, this route up to IPMod (so transplant, 280 airbox - with fabrication to feed turbo, full service, injector refurbishment, and lots of fettling on things like throttle linkages to keep hand throttle and bespoke 64mm stainless exhaust, but excluding intercooler) will be circa £3.5k-£4k - but don't tell my wife :-)

 

looking forward to seeing  this conversion. if you get power close to the td5 you will have a seriously quick G !

rgds hus

 

 

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Re: 617a whats the difference

  http://www.ebay.de/itm/OM617A-Aufkleber-sticker-label-C123-W123-300D-300CD-300TD-Diesel-Turbo-NEU-/121462418735?pt=Autozubeh%C3%B6r&hash=item1c47b96d2f

​  hus i was flash and stuck one of these on the air boxlaugh

  if you watch the site when no one bids 0.80euro

   exhaust i used 62mm out the back LWB they hated me

   sounds like electric fan is the way to go unless you have a mate called Kevin Stuttgart

    mmm there must be a water proof fan some where

    i used the OEM plastic horse shoe bit cut it down for a shoulder to the turbo then      connect with flexi pipe/hose to the air box 

    adrian

​   

 

 
 
 

 

OM617A-Aufkleber-sticker-label-C123-W123-300D-300CD-300TD-Diesel-Turbo-NEU
 
Mouse over image to zoom
Have one to sell? Sell it yourself

 

    

cox.adrian
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Re: 617a whats the difference

   just found these pics of my original (BODDGE UP)

  of the fitting of the 280ge airbox pre intercooler

​   please don't laugh i know its a bloody abortionblush

     adrian

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Re: 617a whats the difference
Yep.. Will definately update. Bit doubtful on the as fast as a TD5 bit myself. My brother has a new SWB 2 seater and it goes like stink. Its' still pulling like a train when the limiter cuts in at 85.. Mind you the engine warning light is nearly always on :-)). The guys who do all the work on the G are big on LR's tuning, and it was them who felt the TD5 goal might be achievable. His only caveat was who much black smoke I would think acceptable, and the fact that the Bosch IP was not as familiar as the one on the LR's so he didn't know off the top of his head how much there was left in it - they send the IP's out as mentioned above. ScouseG has now had a ride in it following the exhaust and injector work - I'm sure he'll be along at some point to say how he feels it goes now. Currently I would say it 'keeps up' with traffic without having to be flogged to death. Simon
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Re: 617a whats the difference
I'll also take a pic of the airbag to turbo pipe work like Adrian - used Silicone pipe connected to some powder coated angled sections of exhaust to neaten things up - as usual on here at night so at some point tomorrow I'll try to remember to lift the bonnet. The guys felt the air routing to the turbo was OK - From Adrian's picture mine might be a little more angled - certainly they did not see any need to get it in smoother, but as Adrian says I thought a cleaner air inlet helped the turbo to boost better. Ignition cut off on both the 671 & 617a is vacuum initiated at the ignition switch (tiny valve unit that can fail?) that goes back to the IP pump. On the 617 the vacuum shut off is very obviously horizontally mounted on the IP. On my 617a is is vertically mounted on the back of the IP pump up against the bulkhead. Strangely on my previous 617 the vacuum lines got mixed up and when I swapped them round performance got a lot better. Ta Simon
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Re: 617a whats the difference

Simon's inlet pipework, picture taken last nite. Purchased from autosiliconehoses.com

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Re: 617a whats the difference

  LOOKS NICEyes

  PS you woudnt have a spare clamp for the end of the trumpet 

   on the 280 air box you can sell me?

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Re: 617a whats the difference

adrian you wonna see the crap they do out here, honestly !! that looks  perfectly fine mate !  for the time being...:))

 

would be nice to see what the engine bay looks like now.

 

rgds hus

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Re: 617a whats the difference

could anyone help with how they connected up the throttle linkage ? my mechanic has used a custom approach. not too happy with it. it will do for now though i guess or he will keep the G in his workshop for another 3 years !

 

rgds hus

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Re: 617a whats the difference

Hi Pic of the engine bay for mine? no problem I will sort it and post here. Adrian the guys just used standard jubilee clip - guessing it must have been one for 75-100mm given I think the outlet from the airbox is 84mm?? Throttle linkage wise Grahame got the standard set up to work and then I had it adjusted (Grahame would have done it, but I had my wife locked outside the house waiting for me to get home from his garage :-) to get the hand throttle to work again. This was just a matter of sorting though the various linkages to make sure the IP arm could go through full range without fouling the bracket on the cylinder head. Ta Simon

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Re: 617a whats the difference

Some pics of Adrian's engine bay. These are all I have.

Eddie.

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Re: 617a whats the difference

Engine bay pics - well hopefully ta Simon

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Re: 617a whats the difference

  HA ha see you had to slide the air box forward as well

   Cos of the brake booster

    but lucky there is a hole in the inner wing that lines uplaugh

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Re: 617a whats the difference

thanks eddie. thanks simon666.

the rod that comes from the firewall to the throttle mechanism on the ip. whats the use of it ? is that what pushes down when the pedal is pressed? because i can also see a throttle cable going on to the mechanism , or is that for idle control ?

 

btw, my engine sits far more forward than yours. my mechanic pulled the engine mount plates found on the chassis forward. its really cleared the sump from the diff by doing this. but the rad and fan are literally 'kissing'. also my 79G being a lhd the install was all pretty easy .

 

rgds hus

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Re: 617a whats the difference

  i will stand corrected 

   on the RHD the throttle pushes the rod across the bulkhead to the round

   ( rubber thing bush) turns the rod to operate the IP as you say the cable

   is for the tick over adjuster

   huss on yours have you used the 617n/a sump or the 617a sump

      adrian

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Re: 617a whats the difference

adrian , the 617 sump will not work on the 617a ..617a sump has the oil pump on it and thus about 5 cm longer

 

rgds hus

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Re: 617a whats the difference

my setup in like the  choke cable. but i would prefer the original setup too...thanks for enlightening me adrian. best contact guido or maybe mike or eddie might have these parts  lying about.

 

rgds hus

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Re: 617a whats the difference

Not sure which bits you need Hus. I have loads of 617 bits but nothing for 617A specific. Scouse G might be able to help there.

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Re: 617a whats the difference

needamerc wrote:

Some pics of Adrian's engine bay. These are all I have.

Eddie.

Adrian...

I assume the clamp you were asking Simon about is the rubber insulated "P" Clamp that is towards the end of the Air Intake Pipe in to the Air Box? Shown on the first picture Eddie posted of your engine bay, you have reused the 300GD standard clamp and had to cable tie it together as it is not large enough to go around the increased bore of the replacement 280GE Air Intake?

The 280GE does not appear to use that clamp in standard form...

Simon, any size dimension on the Clamp you / Graham used? Or can you measure the bore of the 280 Air Intake where you have that pipe? The 300GD standard Clamp lists as 50mm so assuming 60mm +

Quite a common part, but maybe not in Thailand Adrian? LOL

I can get one and send if you need... or Simon / Graham if you have a spare i can PM Adrian's UK address for an early Xmas present angel

Gav

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Re: 617a whats the difference

hi eddie. i would generally need the linkages from the accelerator pedal to the ip.... the part of fixed to firewall that has round rubber grommet would probably have to be newly purchased as it causes play in the accelerator pedal.

 

gav may have the diagram to this..;)

 

rgds hus

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Re: 617a whats the difference
Hi To answer Gav first ref the air box fastener. The mechanics I use took the original bracket that Grahame had done the zip tie fix on, (as I was pressuring Grahame for the G back - see earlier post about leaving my wife locked out of the house :-), and welded a bit in to make it fit - they like welding stuff. Ref the other questions the throttle proper is the rod control. The cable is for the dash mounted idle control, though I have had it described to me as a hand throttle for use in low ratio over rough ground? The set up linkage wise is exactly the same as it was on the 617 - although I know there was a bit of messing about to get all of it to come together and allow full throttle movement etc. Hope that helps Simon
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Re: 617a whats the difference

  Simon   dash mounted idle control, though I have had it described to me as a hand throttle for use in low ratio over rough ground  (news to me)

  to use it as cruse control off road guess different style M/T and A/T

   i tend to select a gear on my A/T low ratio  (eg lock in  2nd) in mud water diff lock as  necessary

​   hold 2000RPM very rare i need more than 2000rpm  

   how i use my idle control

   start up

  foot on the   throttle take the stress out of the cable turn knob

   start engine set less than 1000rpm wait till temp gauge shows life 

   turn knob back off 

    then drive as you wish (SHOCK HEATING WILL CAUSE DAMAGE) 

    as the 617s are a bit mobile cold on a slow tick over (stress engine mounts)

    shut down

    on arrival  any long hills coast try to bring the engine temp down as best you can

     after you have parked wait 2 or 3 min then turn off

                                      (SHOCK COOLING WILL CAUSE DAMAGE) 

      I KNOW IM A OLD WOMANsmiley

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Re: 617a whats the difference

  GAV spot on thats the clamp im looking for!

   ive asked new member jhw if he can post a pic of what is fitted

   on his 280ge

​    huss looks like i was lucky i was walking about with both sumps

    didnt notice the 5mm difference i chucked all the toys out of the pram

    over the turbo oil return angry 

        adrian

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Re: 617a whats the difference
here are a few pics from last week. please advice me on anything you see not right..
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Re: 617a whats the difference

all good advice adrian. you are old school but its the right way to be...

 

i can recommend you fit  a simple turbo timer to your G. i have it on my cabrio. you can adjust it to your needs. mine is set to 40 seconds after i stop to shut off. get out lock the door and walk away...people always ask me why i forget to shut the engine offlaugh

79G will get onen fitted  too...

rgds hus

hus55
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Joined: 09.01.2006
Location: north cyprus
GWOA Groups: Members
Re: 617a whats the difference

sorry to ask but is that clamp necesary ?? sorry.....

 

i would say a snorkel is a very wise step forward. the cold  air draws from external is very very benificial..it disconnected mine off the cabrio G to see if it made a difference under moderate throttle climbing the kyrenia mountain pass. BIGTIME !!