New recall for the G350 Bluetec - more engine cooling problems?

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Heavyoil
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Hello, Just spoken to Brooklands about my G350 Bluetec. Apparently there is a new recall for this model - SMPC675 (?) - for the oil cooler. They check it and may spend 33 hrs fitting a bigger one! This comes after the MB recall for 2011/2012 Bluetecs that fitted bigger sumps, but in some instances also involved engine replacements... Can anyone else offer insights? I'll keep this thread updated when the car goes in later this month. If anyone wishes to mention that Bluetec is more trouble than its worth, I'm inclined to agree!

Arnie
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Re: New recall for the G350 Bluetec - more engine cooling ...

I think the issue is mainly related to the extended oil-drain intervals, which in some cases can reach 25,000 km, with much smaller quantities of oil. I guess this is for giving the owner the false perceived benefit of lower servicing costs. Crank-case breather arrangements and ventilation are also related to this and there may be some design issues here, but the main one, I think is the thinner oils that are specified (to reduce friction) and that the service intervals are too long, for the reduced oil quantity.

If the owner does many short journeys, the engine never reaches a high enough temperature to boil-off the water content in the oil and this then forms sludge. Maybe also together with mixed soot particles. The increased oil capacity with the new sump was to reduce the likelihood. However, just changing your oil at a more appropriate interval would solve the issue. Traditionally, 7 - 8 litres was the typical oil fill in MB engine of 6 cylinders and above. 

The replacement of the oil-cooler is probably to have one with increased flow (larger passages), as it has been noted that the sludge blocks the filters and passages.

Just use a good oil and change it every 10 k miles or annually, whichever occurs first.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=POkWUXZgv-Q

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W4BqDv6W280

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y0EI2hYy6DE

http://www.benzworld.org/forums/general-mercedes-benz/1663766-om642-v6-diesel-engine-failure.html

http://www.benzworld.org/forums/w164-m-class/1210137-disconcerting-news-om-642-engine-maintenance.html

http://mbworld.org/forums/diesel-forum/449560-2010-ml350-bluetech-engine-siezed.html

http://sprinter-source.com/forum/archive/index.php/t-1146.html

'...More oil vapours from the crankcase because of using the [thinner] 5W-30 oil means more cruddy buildup as the soot from EGR gases mix with the oil vapours from the turbo and sticks to the inlet manifold. The black mess eventually causes the swirl flaps to become sticky and the overall diameter of the inlet manifold to be reduced. ..

 

This may be a good reason to use 'V-power' type fuels manufactured from gas-to-liquid process, as these produce much lower soot levels.

EGR valves s may be good for reducing NOX, but bad for the engine and performance in every other way. (maybe VW....)

 

This article is particularly informative:

http://www.machinerylubrication.com/Read/1033/diesel-engine-oil-contaminants

 

 

 

 

Theo
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Re: New recall for the G350 Bluetec - more engine cooling ...

Thank you Arnie, makes interesting reading, the fuel choice is probably a good point; by (unscientific) observation, I think that it is not hard driving that causes problems but easy journeys in the 5 - 10 mile journey range:  it takes 5 - 10 miles for the engine to reach temperature (i.e. fuel consumption drops from about 20mpg to 25 mpg) but at the end of a 10 mile journey (B roads/ minor stop and go) the fans are active for a while once the car has been parked; this does not happen on longer journeys (did 90mph in Germany for hours) nor when going off-road.

gav.helme
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Re: New recall for the G350 Bluetec - more engine cooling ...

SMPC675

I will try to find out more...

"SM" = Service Measure

rather than...

"SR" Safety Recall

Assume PC675 is Passenger Car No 675

Service Measures tend to be non safety related obviously and more technical improvements found during production

Some will be sent out as Customer Contact like the recalls, some wont... it depends on the nature of the modifications

Gav

Heavyoil
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Re: New recall for the G350 Bluetec - more engine cooling ...

Many thanks Gav for offering further research - here's the GWOA link of the previous (vary major) SM for retrofitting larger sumps to the G. 

http://www.gwoa.co.uk/content/purchasing-used-2010-2011-g350-bluetec-eng...

I looked at one invoice for this SM work when finding my current G - it was £5k in all.

Just worried that two SM's on one engineering topic - engine oil and temperature suggest a larger issue. Arnie's links seem to show some failures. 

I also have an OM605 powered C-Class which gets to do most short  journeys. It's more robust then the precious Bluetec for this kind of driving! I change it's oil annually at intervals which are generally 3-7k miles. 

Arnie
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Re: New recall for the G350 Bluetec - more engine cooling ...

Heavyoil wrote:

...

Just worried that two SM's on one engineering topic - engine oil and temperature suggest a larger issue. Arnie's links seem to show some failures....

 

I suspect that the larger cooler is not to solve an over-temperature issue. The oil cooler works by heat-exchanging with the engine coolant. I think the larger unit will reduce likelihood of blockage through sludge and may help the engine oil reach its operating temperature more quickly, as usually, the engine coolant reaches operating temperature faster than the oil. So, really the larger sump, more oil and a larger heat-exchanger are all targeted towards the same goal: More oil and getting the oil more quickly up to its operating temperature should help reduce sludge formation.

The question is really why should  this engine have a higher propensity to form sludge, compared to previous models. Well that might be down to

  • thinner engine oil
  • less engine oil
  • different crank-case ventilation (?)
  • operation of exhaust-gas re-circulation (?)
  • different engine operating maps required by DPF and other pollution-reduction measures (?)

 

 

  •  

 

 

Russ280
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Re: New recall for the G350 Bluetec - more engine cooling ...

Arnie wrote:

Heavyoil wrote:

...

Just worried that two SM's on one engineering topic - engine oil and temperature suggest a larger issue. Arnie's links seem to show some failures....

 

I suspect that the larger cooler is not to solve an over-temperature issue. The oil cooler works by heat-exchanging with the engine coolant. I think the larger unit will reduce likelihood of blockage through sludge and may help the engine oil reach its operating temperature more quickly, as usually, the engine coolant reaches operating temperature faster than the oil. So, really the larger sump, more oil and a larger heat-exchanger are all targeted towards the same goal: More oil and getting the oil more quickly up to its operating temperature should help reduce sludge formation.

The question is really why should  this engine have a higher propensity to form sludge, compared to previous models. Well that might be down to

  • thinner engine oil
  • less engine oil
  • different crank-case ventilation (?)
  • operation of exhaust-gas re-circulation (?)
  • different engine operating maps required by DPF and other pollution-reduction measures (?)

 

 

  •  

 

 

My guess would be lack of  crank ventilation which has something to do with emissions.


Oil sludging imho (and issues I have seen in non automotive environments) is created by moisture / water. Fully synthetic and frequent oil changes can reduce it but won't cure the basic design flaws.


I'd agree that the larger oil to water cooler is actually there to get the oil up to temperature quickly rather than keep the engine cooler.


Modern diesels are more trouble than they are worth. They'll no doubt see horrific depreciation over the coming years

Arnie
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Re: New recall for the G350 Bluetec - more engine cooling ...

The old OM617 and OM603 may not have had the power, but they were definitely reliable.

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Re: New recall for the G350 Bluetec - more engine cooling ...
Two comments related to reliability - and we have already had VW Touareg Bluetec in for vast over consumption of AdBlue (36 litres in 9,000 miles ) - not related to engine sludging... but on a theme.. Needed a 4 hour software upgrade that it kept rejecting apparently :-) The mechanics who work on my G - Extensive specialist experience in diesels (middle of pennine farming community and have a passion for Rally in which they compete) as well as providing latest knowledge - so are trained to within and inch of their lives on engine technology and electronics, have the following sage advice about the lasted generations of Diesels specifically and electronics in general (they get all the 'awkward' cars in from Main dealers when they can't sort them) On new generation diesels - the regurgitation systems are literally strangling them to death and the days of the 100k diesel is going to be a distant memory very soon - so if it's new, and a keeper they suggest Petrol :-)) On electronincs - with the advent of fly by wire multifunction paper thin 'painted on' wiring looms and indirect connection fairly innocuous faults are going to start writing off 4-6 year old cars as they become uneconomical to repair - or to echo another forum post, result in a lot of unnecessary and very expensive repairs due to perviously simple to identify and rectify problems. So.. Less emissions, Less Reliability, Less durability, but more cost... Progress!!
gav.helme
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Re: New recall for the G350 Bluetec - more engine cooling ...

So, we can all wait another year and start buying 10 plate G350 Bluetecs for £10k, ripping out the Engine and Gearbox and all electrics and start putting OM606's in, adding rubber light surrounds and no arches and making retro 460's! Full circle...

Russ280
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Re: New recall for the G350 Bluetec - more engine cooling ...

gav.helme wrote:

So, we can all wait another year and start buying 10 plate G350 Bluetecs for £10k, ripping out the Engine and Gearbox and all electrics and start putting OM606's in, adding rubber light surrounds and no arches and making retro 460's! Full circle...

 

You'll need a rocket scientist to figure that conversion out Gav.


On the up side they'll be cheaper than a very scabby 460 so it could be financially viable to fly someone in from NASA to figure it out.

Russ280
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Re: New recall for the G350 Bluetec - more engine cooling ...

Or an unemployed VW engineer.

 
The VW scandal is probably the tip of the iceberg. They've produced some of the best diesel engines ever. If you think the others do better you're delusional.
Diesel technology is dead.
Arnie
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Re: New recall for the G350 Bluetec - more engine cooling ...

Simon666 wrote:
.............On new generation diesels - the regurgitation systems are literally strangling them to death and the days of the 100k diesel is going to be a distant memory very soon - so if it's new, and a keeper they suggest Petrol :-)) On electronincs - with the advent of fly by wire multifunction paper thin 'painted on' wiring looms and indirect connection fairly innocuous faults are going to start writing off 4-6 year old cars as they become uneconomical to repair ....

 

I agree that it would be better (for the engine) if Exhaust Gas Re-circulation  systems did not exist. The mechanical simplicity that made diesels reliable has been lost with all the electronics required to increase their specific power and economy, and with all the emission-controls systems to meet Euro-5 /6, they are now much more complicated than equivalent petrol engines.

As for the wiring looms these days, it's true that they are so flimsy compared to ones of old. Even my 2001, G400 has wiring and connectors of the quality that one would expect to find inside a cheap, plastic toy. There must be a drive to save on copper and all the new microelectronics perhaps does not lend itself so well to chunky wiring and connectors, but I think the last G's with decent wiring were probably up to  1999 .

 

Simon666
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Re: New recall for the G350 Bluetec - more engine cooling ...
Hi Arnie The other thing about the level of electronic sophistication these days (lets leave aside if it's all actually adding to the party driving wise - ESP yes, 6 zone aircon??), it is highly likely you couldn't actually fit a traditionally wired loom into the car, even if you could figure one out to doc all the stuff directly wired :-). You'd probably need a 3,500kg towing capacity to carry all the copper in a trailer behind your car :-)). Copper wise I'm sure I saw something somewhere recently that said at current usage we would be out of new suppliers in under 25 years... hence all those poor kids stripping wire in certain other countries. Simon
Arnie
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Re: New recall for the G350 Bluetec - more engine cooling ...

Yes, Simon, that's true. if you want all the toys and safety features and gimmicks, then you need the electronics. It can't be done with relay-logic. I guess MB has its price-point for these and I wish at least the connectors could be of somewhat better quality. The indicators and courtesy lights packed-up in my G400 the other month and I was surprised to find that the control module (on CAB bus) was located inside the door cavity and none of its flimsy connectors were water/moisture sealed. Unsurprisingly one had corroded. However, with just one heavy duty power wire and two thin, CAN bus wires (passing through the concertina rubber conduit into the door), the module is able to control the indicators, electric windows, seat adjustment and door lights, etc, so, yes, the amount of copper is reduced.

 

 

Heavyoil
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Re: New recall for the G350 Bluetec - more engine cooling ...

Well, if my OM605 powered C-class dies of rust, I'll offer it here first so the engine can live on in a G-wagen!

I agree the EURO 5-6 tripe has added cost and reduced reliability. But there are millions of these 300CDI engines - mostly in lesser vehicles - so ongoing service and support will be available. Sadly the Petrol engine option on a post-2011 RHD G is a £40k upgrade...

My G is off to Brooklands for the SM work soon, so I will update here...

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Re: New recall for the G350 Bluetec - more engine cooling ...

Heavyoil wrote:

Sadly the Petrol engine option on a post-2011 RHD G is a £40k upgrade...

My G is off to Brooklands for the SM work soon, so I will update here...

In 2011, Mercedes' logic for not offering the G500 was that ML500 and GL500 do not sell in the UK and that the G350 and G500 have similar amount of torque.  I tried to explain that the potential buyer of a G500 is not likely to buy a G55 but to no avail.  All eyes are now on the 2017 model, the side-pipes on the 2016 G500 are not promising but hope dies last.

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Re: New recall for the G350 Bluetec - more engine cooling ...

Arnie wrote:

Simon666 wrote:
.............On new generation diesels - the regurgitation systems are literally strangling them to death and the days of the 100k diesel is going to be a distant memory very soon - so if it's new, and a keeper they suggest Petrol :-)) On electronincs - with the advent of fly by wire multifunction paper thin 'painted on' wiring looms and indirect connection fairly innocuous faults are going to start writing off 4-6 year old cars as they become uneconomical to repair ....

 

I agree that it would be better (for the engine) if Exhaust Gas Re-circulation  systems did not exist. The mechanical simplicity that made diesels reliable has been lost with all the electronics required to increase their specific power and economy, and with all the emission-controls systems to meet Euro-5 /6, they are now much more complicated than equivalent petrol engines.

As for the wiring looms these days, it's true that they are so flimsy compared to ones of old. Even my 2001, G400 has wiring and connectors of the quality that one would expect to find inside a cheap, plastic toy. There must be a drive to save on copper and all the new microelectronics perhaps does not lend itself so well to chunky wiring and connectors, but I think the last G's with decent wiring were probably up to  1999 .

 

 i find all of this mind blowing

   as i live on the Asia highway (H4)  the 3rd world

    all 90% of our diesel  engines run on NGV  10 UK pence a kg

  MB sell these off the show room floor

   when i was last in the UK THEY LOOKED  at me as if i just got back from mars

     about time to move to the 21 century 

    just a ideawink

Arnie
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Re: New recall for the G350 Bluetec - more engine cooling ...

Yes,there are even dual-fuel diesel/NGV,  but the UK and Europe have a shortage of natural gas, and if everyone was using it, I am sure the government would soon hike taxes.

 

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Re: New recall for the G350 Bluetec - more engine cooling ...

Arnie wrote:

Yes,there are even dual-fuel diesel/NGV,  but the UK and Europe have a shortage of natural gas, and if everyone was using it, I am sure the government would soon hike taxes.

 

The "dash to gas"  through the 1990's where our government encouraged the use of North Sea gas to generate electricity was criminal. Short term profit which we are all paying for.

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Re: New recall for the G350 Bluetec - more engine cooling ...

Russ280 wrote:

Arnie wrote:

Yes,there are even dual-fuel diesel/NGV,  but the UK and Europe have a shortage of natural gas, and if everyone was using it, I am sure the government would soon hike taxes.

 

The "dash to gas"  through the 1990's where our government encouraged the use of North Sea gas to generate electricity was criminal. Short term profit which we are all paying for.

Totally agree. North Sea gas should have been kept for domestic and limited commercial/industrial use.  Obviously cheaper to set-up gas-turbine-powered generation using industrialised aero engines than to keep the mines open and build more coal-fired stations, which require a longer-term view, or even to invest in more nuclear. Britain was at the fore-front of nuclear energy, but all that has been lost now to the extent that we are now planning to get the Chinese to build them for us and guaranteeing them a return based on electricity prices 2x those in Europe. Meanwhile, Germany has ditched nuclear in favour of coal. I don't think our politicians have a clue. The UK steel industry is on its way out now, too. So much for 'Made in China'. Britain has sold-off just about everything and ironically, all the prestigious,  top brands which are identified with the UK are now foreign owned (RollsRoyce, Bentley, Jaguar, mini, Raleigh, Harrods, Weetabix, Cadbury, Boots....) At some point people will realise that the UK cannot continue to compete just on the City and service industries.

 

 

 

 

 

 

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Re: New recall for the G350 Bluetec - more engine cooling ...

The lunatics are well and truly in charge. They want to shut all the coal fired stations by 2025 and replace this capacity with gas. Umm where does that come from.....what happens when they turn it off or treble the price?

We have come within minutes of the total collapse of the electricity transmission system in the past couple of years. Although the so called black start is planned for by definition no one actually knows if it will be possible to recover from such an event.

All the renewables connected exacerbate this instability.

I suggest we all start hoarding tins of beans and acquire a big gun :-)

Maybe a little off topic.

Arnie
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Re: New recall for the G350 Bluetec - more engine cooling ...

Yes, co-incidentally I've just now seen the news tonight about government plans for increasing gas-powered generation and closing-down coal. Of course the excuse is given as reducing carbon pollution, but in fact the plan, will as you say, increase our dependence on Russia. There is no reason why coal cannot be reasonably clean with the appropriate scrubber technology. And, without the spinning inertia of the large generating sets the grid will become highly unstable. It's all extremely short-sighted thinking, but no government of late has been able to think any further than the next election.

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Re: New recall for the G350 Bluetec - more engine cooling ...

Yes you would have thought that all those huge wind turbines would have a load of inertia (assuming the wind is blowing at the correct speed) in reality they are designed to have ZERO inertia.

So the more you connect the more unstable the entire system becomes.
 
Never mind I'm sure the French and the Chinese will help out, for a price of course, double the price.

Arnie wrote:

And, without the spinning inertia of the large generating sets the grid will become highly unstable. It's all extremely short-sighted thinking, but no government of late has been able to think any further than the next election.

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Re: New recall for the G350 Bluetec - more engine cooling ...

Car has now been looked at by my local dealer.

It does indeed require a new oil cooler - 33 hrs work. They will want it for a week and are waiting for the spare parts to come in. 

On the plus side it had the oil drained and replaced for the Service Measure; this will be done again for the repair, so it gets a free engine flush this year!